Estiah Forum

General Forum => Suggestions => Topic started by: Yogurt on 05:26:13 - 08/10/12

Title: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Yogurt on 05:26:13 - 08/10/12
Anyone thinks it needs a little nerf tweak? The mechanism of this charm is somehow dull at first glance, however, after days and nights of secret experiments two out of three would reveal its omnipotent potential:

Against single damage type: the other half of its damage composition is usually strong enough to kill(not to say the defensive role of the correspondent half). An often overlooked problem adding to this is that most melee charms only grant armor while magic charms only grant ward. (See http://www.estiah.com/pvp/coliseum/tournament/id/242096, RA against two melee decks and one magic deck. One fight contains Null Barbs, which is not a strong enough counter to RA as to traditional aura decks for ots lack of aura densities.)

Against spirit: Both damage compositions coming into play makes it a formidable charm of wounding. Though spirit makes an RA deck more RNG dependant(however such effect applies to all decks that rely on a single charm, e.g. a GS deck).

Finally here is a 2v2 replay whose winner group is RA+casual melee(maybe not so casual, if you pay attention to her charms). It beats focus melee, melee with cleanse(Thundering Blow) & normalize(Alcyone) and finally spirit. (See http://www.estiah.com/pvp/coliseum/tournament/id/242118)

Another charm which resembles this(to the least extent) is Stone Mocking Face, though the condition is much more harse. They belong to the category of charms which can automatically "adjust" themselves according to opponent's decks.

After all, my solution is to reduce RA's arua length by 2, to make it a more specific charm in aura strategy(which means that it depends more on extenders and hurts more on shorteners).
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Qqchampion on 05:37:18 - 08/10/12
no
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Yogurt on 06:24:15 - 08/10/12
no

Yeah I agree it does not cause serious balance issues(You can always put inside your deck Ivory Needles and Black Deaths etc). However, it's a very potent charm in its own category(Maybe any early charms in a new category is at such degree of potency, e.g. Blood Pact or even Crystal of the Dawn?). So it is hard to make the choice.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Sparky on 06:37:03 - 08/10/12
no
EDIT: spiritters have the perfect counters to RA: Acamar and Chaotic Desire against auras, Power Corruption to slow down the dps (with a huge base spirit damage). Man up.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Astrolabia on 06:47:05 - 08/10/12
no

also RA does not win against Spirit unless you gave the RNG god a blowjob

I literally just lost coli to Spirit and some random Lv52 dude with a cookie-cutter Spirit gear beat me.

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/coliseum/242140/id/1694981
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Misha on 06:48:04 - 08/10/12
no
EDIT: spiritters have the perfect counters to RA: Acamar and Chaotic Desire against auras, Power Corruption to slow down the dps (with a huge base spirit damage). Man up.

Soulcleaver

EDIT: http://www.estiah.com/pvp/coliseum/tournament/id/242172  Current run of same team as your 2v link, wrecked by spirit.  RNG gonna RNG.  Also, I haven't won in 1v1 with Radiant Aegis very often lately.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Astrolabia on 08:41:06 - 08/10/12

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/41948630/owner/108024

normalize/purge owns RA so yeah
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Quazee on 14:26:55 - 08/10/12
no

EDIT: spiritters have the perfect counters to RA: Acamar and Chaotic Desire against auras, Power Corruption to slow down the dps (with a huge base spirit damage). Man up.

Soulcleaver

As RA requires level 50, I'm assuming we're speaking about spirit@50+ too.
1. Acamar is an epic, thus significantly less accessible than RA.
2. Chaotic Desire in 1v1, at 50+ ? Have you seen anyone using it lately (i.e post-NB) in competitive PvP ?
3. Power Corruption may (with a strong emphasis on "may") be used at 50, in some circumstances. Using it at 51+, when there's epics spam left and right, is a good indicator of suicidal tendencies.
4. It may well be an academic objection, but Soulcleaver is (slightly) less accessible than RA. Just look at the attribute requirements.


In all fairness, before throwing "man up" statements do try the other side of the fence. Do play spirit yourselves; with 40 skirmishes a day, ergo thousands of attempts in a few months, you can mount spirit against virtually any type of deck, no matter how exotic/less common. It's getting really tiresome to witness ad nauseam the "spirit trumps all" claim, without the due considerations to how stuff actually unfolds in practice.

That much said, sorry for the derail.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Qqchampion on 16:45:48 - 08/10/12
Accessibility is barely an issue at 50+ though. Power corruption is potentially usable at 50, like you said, and I haven't found chaotic desire to be that bad, honestly (though it's probably sub-optimal). By the time you hit 51, or even high-50s, you have no business trying to run spirit at all without access to soulcleaver and acamar. All that said, I'm not sure why you're whining about spirit charms being more inaccessible than a gimmick strategy. The counters exist, so if you want to run spirit without losing to RA as often, you can farm them. Spirit having to farm to beat RA is good. Man up.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Astrolabia on 17:07:56 - 08/10/12
4. It may well be an academic objection, but Soulcleaver is (slightly) less accessible than RA. Just look at the attribute requirements.

In all fairness, before throwing "man up" statements do try the other side of the fence. Do play spirit yourselves; with 40 skirmishes a day, ergo thousands of attempts in a few months, you can mount spirit against virtually any type of deck, no matter how exotic/less common. It's getting really tiresome to witness ad nauseam the "spirit trumps all" claim, without the due considerations to how stuff actually unfolds in practice.

That much said, sorry for the derail.

>Attribute requirements at 50+

What are you talking about? When you're 50+, you shouldn't need to worry about attribute requirements?  ??? Almost every dedicated Spirit user I've seen at level 50 and up already have Fates of Acamar and Soulcleaver, so there is literally no freaking excuse to not have at least a couple of those in your gear if you run dedicated Spirit, basically echoing out qqchampion's sentiments here, because what the hell.

And besides, even discounting Spirit?

You are still left with people running dedicated Null Barbs gears, people running gears that auto-include Storms of Alcyone, people running Thundering Blow in 1v1 and 2v2 for God knows why, and some of the more gimmicky people running strats that use True Sight. Radiant Aegis is fine. There are ways to get past it, and having to actually THINK about ways to get past a certain strategy should be encouraged rather than introduce something that has a no-brainer counter.

Also the money cost on Soulcleaver is more of an issue than the stat attributes really.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Misha on 17:39:25 - 08/10/12
Spirit also has banes + Black Death.

There are lots of counters to Radiant Aegis, just no one is running them yet (except Storm of Alcyone and Null Barbs because they are autoincludes in every deck ever does no one see the problem here) because the Radiant Aegis deck isn't all that popular.  If Radiant Aegis starts being a popular and effective strategy, maybe the metagame will follow and start adding counters.  It's really too early to be screaming for a nerf since Radiant Aegis HASN'T been topping colis every time or even close.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Quazee on 19:00:39 - 08/10/12
Accessibility is barely an issue at 50+ though.
(...)
I'm not sure why you're whining about spirit charms being more inaccessible than a gimmick strategy.

1. Accessibility is never an issue - in the strict literal sense of "problem". Below mid-51, one is basically forced to prioritize one approach over another; and this is good, as it actually adds depth to the game. There are choices, and there are consequences.
2. Grow the fuck up, please, and stop throwing obvious flame baits at me. You won't add substance to your arguments this way.

When you're 50+, you shouldn't need to worry about attribute requirements?  ???

Heh (http://forum.estiah.com/index.php?topic=1614.msg80143;topicseen#msg80143). Not only Inqs/DKs are allowed to play spirit. Conversely, not only (e.g.) Warlords deal with melee CPB. Juggling the attribute requirements (again, below mid-51) is an integral part of the game.

Spirit also has banes + Black Death.

Two points to make here :
1. There a lot of things that would make entry in an idealized spirit deck (i.e. disregarding the spirit pool altogether); from self-cleanse to armor/ward/willpower/heal to shorteners to bane extenders to anti-loldecks tools. Putting everything in a ~70c deck, without diluting it into oblivion... mission impossible. As it rightfully should be.
2. Approaches based on spirit banes can be, evidently, devastating to the unsuspecting opponent(s). No one is contending that. However, spirit banes do have a lot of counters; without any exaggeration whatsoever. Allow me to offer an example : you're 52, being able to play any sort of spirit deck you'd like. Assemble one to your liking, based on spirit banes, and then throw a few skirmishes against decks consisting of epics spam/two-three Empathic sets/Forest Medicine. See how's stuff looking from the other side of the fence. :]




PS. I fully agree that the current implementation of RA is working out fine. For some strange reason, it seems that my position wasn't that obvious... when I was merely presenting rebuttals to some of the arguments that were thrown around.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Misha on 20:22:20 - 08/10/12
2. Approaches based on spirit banes can be, evidently, devastating to the unsuspecting opponent(s). No one is contending that. However, spirit banes do have a lot of counters; without any exaggeration whatsoever. Allow me to offer an example : you're 52, being able to play any sort of spirit deck you'd like. Assemble one to your liking, based on spirit banes, and then throw a few skirmishes against decks consisting of epics spam/two-three Empathic sets/Forest Medicine. See how's stuff looking from the other side of the fence. :]

I'm not sure I see your point?  I never said that spirit banes were OP or anything.

From what I can see you are telling me that spirit banes aren't amazing because they have counters and people are using them?  Isn't that basically the same argument I just made about Radiant Aegis, except that people haven't started using them yet?  Spirit banes have been around a long time and were extremely powerful at one point.  People noticed.  They incorporated counters into their decks.  Now spirit banes aren't too special.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Sparky on 21:13:44 - 08/10/12
It's just like "hey my usual spirit gear that hasn't changed for the past year is not working all that well against the new charms so there's an issue with the new charms".

It's always the goddamn same exact thing with every single new patch. Hey when GS was implemented (and I believed it was OP and believe it still is, at least more than RA is, if at all), some spiritters just incorporated Lightning Arc in their gear instead of going all like "nerf GS so it becomes useless!". Yeah LA is an EA and easier to add to a deck than more specific stuff like vs RA, but come on, it's not like it's the first time auras are a pain to spirit, the use of heavy auras only "recently" declined because of Null Barb behind every fucking where and so easy to add to about any kind of gear, even spirit could almost play it without watering their decks too much! Let people adapt, and if spirit doesn't win all that often against RA, there will certainly be gears that do (oh hey look at my lightning flashwind normapurge blitzkrieg deck ^.^ --> it beats RA that beats (?) spirit that beats... that lightning gear... just the way Estiah is supposed to be!).
In the end, it'll balance out, it's just a young charm used by only a few while other decks haven't adapted to it yet. Pull the alarm too early and it'll end up like Modulation Crystal, being nerfed just because people were too lazy to fucking bother adapting soon enough and preferred whining about it. Look at the game now, cpb and auras aren't even all that rampant at all, Mod Crystal be it in its own version or new one is anything but OP, and barely even used anymore in 3v.
Just using this example to show (as if it's necessary after all that time spent in game and the same story repeating itself over and over again) that yeah, there are new charms that step in and shake the balance, but give it some time and you'll see that people have everything they need to adapt and keep it at bay. Radiant Aegis is perfectly fine the way it is, leave it the hell alone.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Yogurt on 01:21:24 - 08/11/12
It's just like "hey my usual spirit gear that hasn't changed for the past year is not working all that well against the new charms so there's an issue with the new charms".

It's always the goddamn same exact thing with every single new patch. Hey when GS was implemented (and I believed it was OP and believe it still is, at least more than RA is, if at all), some spiritters just incorporated Lightning Arc in their gear instead of going all like "nerf GS so it becomes useless!". Yeah LA is an EA and easier to add to a deck than more specific stuff like vs RA, but come on, it's not like it's the first time auras are a pain to spirit, the use of heavy auras only "recently" declined because of Null Barb behind every fucking where and so easy to add to about any kind of gear, even spirit could almost play it without watering their decks too much! Let people adapt, and if spirit doesn't win all that often against RA, there will certainly be gears that do (oh hey look at my lightning flashwind normapurge blitzkrieg deck ^.^ --> it beats RA that beats (?) spirit that beats... that lightning gear... just the way Estiah is supposed to be!).
In the end, it'll balance out, it's just a young charm used by only a few while other decks haven't adapted to it yet. Pull the alarm too early and it'll end up like Modulation Crystal, being nerfed just because people were too lazy to fucking bother adapting soon enough and preferred whining about it. Look at the game now, cpb and auras aren't even all that rampant at all, Mod Crystal be it in its own version or new one is anything but OP, and barely even used anymore in 3v.
Just using this example to show (as if it's necessary after all that time spent in game and the same story repeating itself over and over again) that yeah, there are new charms that step in and shake the balance, but give it some time and you'll see that people have everything they need to adapt and keep it at bay. Radiant Aegis is perfectly fine the way it is, leave it the hell alone.

Sometimes, someone wants a nerf because they just hate that charm ;)

I like Lawful Will and don't like its nerf. Hate Null Barbs and appreciate its nerf and am relatively indifferent to Radiant Aegis(just pointing out its weirdness). And I think Modulation Crystal is overnerfed that it should be an aoe defense charm(even the modifier steal effect only applies once). Now it's even less useful than Ice Tomb in 3v3 aura gear.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Astrolabia on 01:33:18 - 08/11/12
Heh (http://forum.estiah.com/index.php?topic=1614.msg80143;topicseen#msg80143). Not only Inqs/DKs are allowed to play spirit. Conversely, not only (e.g.) Warlords deal with melee CPB. Juggling the attribute requirements (again, below mid-51) is an integral part of the game.

Well, first of all, yes, when you're at the stage of the game when attributes aren't a problem you can play whatever you want. I've won coliseums with melee cpb, I've won coliseums with +to next burst, I've utilized almost every strategy there is at some point except Spirit because I don't want to use something that I can just mash up with just a set of Lv38~45 charms + Dark Heirloom >_> And yes people still use Withering Touch at Lv50+ because it's just that good :V

And you know what? When I was still 50, I was POW-dump for like the entire time... I couldn't do a lot of the stuff I could do now, I never complained :V

Quote
Two points to make here :
1. There a lot of things that would make entry in an idealized spirit deck (i.e. disregarding the spirit pool altogether); from self-cleanse to armor/ward/willpower/heal to shorteners to bane extenders to anti-loldecks tools. Putting everything in a ~70c deck, without diluting it into oblivion... mission impossible. As it rightfully should be.
2. Approaches based on spirit banes can be, evidently, devastating to the unsuspecting opponent(s). No one is contending that. However, spirit banes do have a lot of counters; without any exaggeration whatsoever. Allow me to offer an example : you're 52, being able to play any sort of spirit deck you'd like. Assemble one to your liking, based on spirit banes, and then throw a few skirmishes against decks consisting of epics spam/two-three Empathic sets/Forest Medicine. See how's stuff looking from the other side of the fence. :]

Trying to play devil's advocate with arguments like these only serve to exacerbate the issue at hand, I hope you realize.

Re: 1.
What's your point?

Also, I haven't won in 1v1 with Radiant Aegis very often lately.

Misha also runs a LONG RA gear. The only reason why I've won as many coliseums as I have with my RA gear is because it's borderline shortdeck :V It gets destroyed by Spirit on a run of the mill day because of how short it is, it's only incredibly rarely I do get a win or ALMOST get a win. When you make it long, you, I dunno, ALSO DILUTE the chances of Radiant Aegis actually being drawn amidst all your -to ongoing crap? Actually, I only see long decks being only beneficial for crap like Summons and cpb... So I don't know what point you are trying to make here.

Re: 2.
Not our fault people are being smart and adapting to how potential Spirit banes can be. :V If people can see how potentially strong spirit banes can be and adapt to it, what's to say people can't do the same with Radiant Aegis? It's honestly not that bad considering, as I EVEN POSTED A REPLAY OF EARLIER, people are auto-including Storm of Alcyone and Null Barbs in most of their gears anyway :| And hey, look, remember the whole hubbub about Blood Pact? Look what happened to that - banished to PvE status. Modulation Crystals? banished to PvE status, okay maybe people still care about it in GvG. Veil of Ash? now I see only see dedicated GS teams run it instead of EVERY FUCKING TEAM EVER. Noticing a pattern here? Given the amount of shit people can choose from in order to deal with Radiant Aegis, let me enumerate:
I foresee Radiant Aegis needing no actual nerf. :|

Sometimes, someone wants a nerf because they just hate that charm ;)

man i am mad, hadn't thought of it as it done in jest
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Quazee on 08:07:55 - 08/11/12
(...) I've utilized almost every strategy there is at some point except Spirit because I don't want to use something that I can just mash up with just a set of Lv38~45 charms + Dark Heirloom >_> And yes people still use Withering Touch at Lv50+ because it's just that good :V

I've already alluded this one. Not having played/experienced spirit decks for yourself will lead, inevitably, to a warped perspective. In 1v1 spirit currently has exactly six auto-include class-agnostic options (ordered by level : WT, DH, Sc, BB, Acamar, Tygann), in 3v3/GvG only two (GK, Pandamius). Everything else, from spirit options (BwT, target lowest spirit, spirit banes/VC, PC/Oc, spirit EAs) to other options (defensive, anti-loldeck tools, Decoy/restore allies), is entirely optional/situational.

Facts are facts, the rest is just cancan. Sorry if this ends up sounding offensive to you.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Astrolabia on 14:16:20 - 08/11/12
I've already alluded this one. Not having played/experienced spirit decks for yourself will lead, inevitably, to a warped perspective. In 1v1 spirit currently has exactly six auto-include class-agnostic options (ordered by level : WT, DH, Sc, BB, Acamar, Tygann), in 3v3/GvG only two (GK, Pandamius). Everything else, from spirit options (BwT, target lowest spirit, spirit banes/VC, PC/Oc, spirit EAs) to other options (defensive, anti-loldeck tools, Decoy/restore allies), is entirely optional/situational.

Facts are facts, the rest is just cancan. Sorry if this ends up sounding offensive to you.

This isn't offensive, just confusing... What are you trying to prove to me again?

I will admit I've played Spirit all of once in 2v2 and that was to help someone with the achievement. I won in that 2v2 by throwing up a 44c gear that had 1 Curse of Pandamius and Smile of Evil. Of course, it had Dark Heirloom in it. No, it didn't have WT, Sc, BB nor Acamar.

Have you, you know, even taken into consideration the NON-Spirit counters to Radiant Aegis? Or are you just trying to beat the dead horse here because you're trying too hard to prove me wrong?
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Uraxor on 15:41:08 - 10/08/13
So from my limited experience I've just made with this effin charm I got this:

Spirit, Banes, Gravity Spear > RA > virtually any 'traditional' deck, including Slayers with Purge n' stuff.
At least I didn't have a single loss (with RA) against a deck falling into the 3rd category.

Soo I was just wondering what non-silver bullet charm can you add in cpb/summon/Aura decks to fight this insanity?
I'm especially interested in the Aura-compatible answers, as a practising Hierarch.
(Consider me having & able to use all non-class charms.)

From the list posted below:

    Storm of Alcyone which people auto-include --> needs a dedicated deck to trigger
    Null Barbs which most people auto-include or make dedicated gears around or is easy to mash into your gear --> wasn't enough
    Aura killing charms --> wasn't enough
    Purge --> wasn't enough

Ofc I've probably met people not running serious counters in those 'not enough' categories, but that only highlights the need to be actively including -several- counter charms..   ???
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Zenetar on 19:03:00 - 10/08/13
Just switch to spirit. Join the Dark side of the Force.
(http://oi40.tinypic.com/x2a42w.jpg)

RA beats spirit sometimes
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Quazee on 20:25:05 - 10/08/13
So from my limited experience I've just made with this effin charm I got this:

Spirit, Banes, Gravity Spear > RA > virtually any 'traditional' deck, including Slayers with Purge n' stuff.
At least I didn't have a single loss (with RA) against a deck falling into the 3rd category.

Soo I was just wondering what non-silver bullet charm can you add in cpb/summon/Aura decks to fight this insanity?
I'm especially interested in the Aura-compatible answers, as a practising Hierarch.
(Consider me having & able to use all non-class charms.)

From the list posted below:

    Storm of Alcyone which people auto-include --> needs a dedicated deck to trigger
    Null Barbs which most people auto-include or make dedicated gears around or is easy to mash into your gear --> wasn't enough
    Aura killing charms --> wasn't enough
    Purge --> wasn't enough

Ofc I've probably met people not running serious counters in those 'not enough' categories, but that only highlights the need to be actively including -several- counter charms..   ???

Oh look, it's that topic again. The realm of peace and harmony, where people display their love/compassion/affection without throwing silly arguments all around. Ahem.

1. First of all, do provide more details : RA short decks or full decks ? Aura-light or aura-heavy ? They play differently, they get different results against RA "counters".
2. Neither of your hard-counters are actually hard RA counters. Neither. Nor spirit (particularly against full decks, as expected), nor banes (any kind of non-spirit banes), nor shortdecked GS (against shortdecked RA, that is).
3. You can add more counters to Astro's list (http://forum.estiah.com/index.php?topic=6332.msg81829#msg81829) of counters : offensive cleanse, maximum action reducers (against shortdecked RA), armor/ward destruction (via banes or "epic shotgun").
4. While RA has a lot of counters, shortdecked RA doesn't have any feasible hard-counter (i.e. both conditions at once). Leave it be, go along your merry way.
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Uraxor on 08:08:43 - 10/09/13
Whoa, that's a lot of questions in answer to one of my own! Sorry, didn't mean to be resurrecting any old quarrels :s

I assume I must be running a short deck, since it's only about 45 charms out of which nearly half are EAs. Spirit mostly eats it alive anyway.

Thanks for the elaboration though :)
Title: Re: Radiant Aegis
Post by: Qqchampion on 00:53:54 - 11/19/18
bumping this 5 year old topic on this dead forum to say that I was incorrect about radiant aegis