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General Forum => Suggestions => Topic started by: Louie on 13:39:20 - 07/24/10

Title: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 13:39:20 - 07/24/10
    First of all, please allow me to repeat the ever-lasting complaints about the invention of Blood Pact. But still I need to emphasis here that the biggest victims of Bp are Summoners(and maybe aura users but at least some of them are wardens/slayers). As summoners are slow in dealing damage, they are in a more disadvantage condition than magic users to counter BP. To make things look even worse, Summoners already have their natural enemies -- Spers for exactly the same reason. So with the existence of BP, Summoners have less room to adjust for countering Spers and more difficulty to find the balance to deal with melees and Spers. That's why I make the suggestion for a new charm: 

Summon: [For each damage modifier on Target]
1 armor(cumul) or ward(cumul) during 4 turns

Requirements: 
Lv45
470 Pow
470 Con
Summon(R3)

Rune: Summon/Tech

The short duration is supposed to make it difficult to be extended(but still extendable) and the effect of the charm is largely depended on both the type of your opponents and the timing you play the charm. The charm is aimed to give more choices for Summoners to balance their pvp gears. Other classes can still use the charm but probably less effective than summoners.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Sparky on 14:42:51 - 07/24/10
Blighted Woodling can own Blood Pact pretty well already.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Zenetar on 14:45:48 - 07/24/10
Summoners can use BP too instead of countering it.  ;D
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 15:02:35 - 07/24/10
Blighted Woodling can own Blood Pact pretty well already.

I tried it but even with 2 extended Blighted Woodling I still can't stop a lv44 Warload from cumulating dreadful cpb. Same applies to zerkers with EAs. Not to say myself also suffer the ongoing loss which makes my Fury of the Elements quite useless. (Using Blighted Woodling means you need to sacrifice a lot of good charms. )     
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gabbin on 16:54:38 - 07/24/10
To be fair, you probably shouldnt be able to stop a warlord from culminating cpb. 
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Schutzengel on 17:17:03 - 07/24/10
Soul Wright + Chimera Ghost + Granite
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Velkrin on 18:48:03 - 07/24/10
Solution 1 (http://progenitor-softworks.com/ew/index.php?title=Frigid_Twilight)
Solution 2 (http://progenitor-softworks.com/ew/index.php?title=Menacing_Stormfront)
Solution 3 (http://progenitor-softworks.com/ew/index.php?title=Storm_of_Alcyone)
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Sparky on 19:00:28 - 07/24/10
Solution 1 (http://progenitor-softworks.com/ew/index.php?title=Frigid_Twilight)
Solution 2 (http://progenitor-softworks.com/ew/index.php?title=Menacing_Stormfront)
Solution 3 (http://progenitor-softworks.com/ew/index.php?title=Storm_of_Alcyone)
He meant as a Summoner.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 23:11:49 - 07/24/10
To be fair, you probably shouldnt be able to stop a warlord from culminating cpb. 

Yeah, but in the same time, I sacrifice my ongoing and also the summon also causes no damage. I should say it's very lucky for me to have two Blighted Woodling extended and still the Warload increase cpb like it never exists.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gtxinsane on 01:03:59 - 07/26/10
Try using Feetbinds, Magebanes, and Decays with your Blighted Woodlings. Or use blightwood blade.:P
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Shroud on 06:21:49 - 07/26/10
Guys, he's trying this as a summoner, summoning... though I don't think there's a really good fix for this in all honesty...

I like the charm concept though; can't say if it's gonna be OP though... limiting it to ongoing CPB may make it more balanced...
nor am I sure you can put in a conditional within a conditional... :)
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Velkrin on 08:40:47 - 07/26/10
Guys, he's trying this as a summoner, summoning...

Which is why we keep providing him with alternative solutions.  Just because he wants to go pure summon doesn't make it a good idea.

Anyway, you could just make a Poison Ignighter summon charm.

Summon:
Either For each bane on target: 10 melee, 10 magic or -1 to target's banes during 4 turns.

Something like that.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Passionario on 09:15:23 - 07/26/10
[For each Scissors sharpness modifier on the target]
+1% chance to win
Runes: Paper/Tech
Rocks, on other hand, are fine.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 10:06:31 - 07/26/10
Guys, he's trying this as a summoner, summoning...

Which is why we keep providing him with alternative solutions.  Just because he wants to go pure summon doesn't make it a good idea.

Anyway, you could just make a Poison Ignighter summon charm.

Summon:
Either For each bane on target: 10 melee, 10 magic or -1 to target's banes during 4 turns.

Something like that.

Then why should summoner exists as a class. I know if I use BP gear in lv43 or lv44's coli, I'll probably be able to get more wins than using a summon gear. But then I'll put myself in a disadvantage place by doing so --- I don't have any Class charm to support me like zerkers or warloads. When you are in the mid way to level 51 with all characters 500+, you can take all the styles you like because it's no longer about class but character. But as a lv44 summoner, there's not many ways I can choose. I dump dex so SP is not a good idea then, I also won't take Boiling Blood short gear because it's brainless and always benefits SPers.
By the way, my gear is not a pure summon gear and I tried all means to make it balanced. So it is not that I determined to use a summon based gear but I had to. Though I admit I choose Summoner because I like the class style and I do want to keep it. Hope the Bunny God has the same thought.

P.S.:    To be honest, even 4 turns(too hard to extend) might not be enough for that charm to be useful as it only applies to cpb opponent.   
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Zenetar on 10:58:56 - 07/26/10
Warden, Slayers, Hierarchs - all of them don't exist in lvls 43-44

You wanna give all of them a special charm to counter BP?
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Kandiru on 12:03:02 - 07/26/10
Don't warden's and slayers already have one?
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gtxinsane on 12:20:45 - 07/26/10
Wardens have the awesome Ice Tomb, and Slayers have True Sight.

I have no idea why BP should be a problem though, remember, BP needs a shitload of turns to be effective, and needs a shitload of BP to be really effective [around 3-4], a summoner should have already extended his summons long enough to either gain a crapload of heal or gain a crapload of summons to be lethal to said CPBer. A summon deck's problem is spirit, and probably BURST CPB [hello mr.pyro], but CPB ongoing? I'd give them a 50-50.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Zenetar on 15:01:39 - 07/26/10
BURST CPB? wtf is that?
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Velkrin on 15:49:55 - 07/26/10
A Charisma based deck.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Chaofan on 16:18:44 - 07/26/10
Blighted woodling + Decay can be a really good counter vs BP, and in fact i would conside that the best counter outside of purging.

See this:
http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/25729050/owner/27821 (http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/25729050/owner/27821)

Ok, the ending might not be great, but it's still a lvl 48 almost beating a lvl 51 top-rated player. Pay attention to turn 119 to see how that setup can be a good counter to BP.
 
Edit to add: Yes, that gear loses pretty much always vs spirit, but it does pretty good vs everything else, so i would consider it quite well balanced.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Sparky on 17:28:04 - 07/26/10
Wardens have the awesome Ice Tomb, and Slayers have Energy Bloom.
Fixed. Even though it doesn't cleanse, unlike Ice Tomb.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gtxinsane on 00:33:33 - 07/27/10
I meant Burst Zen. BURST.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 04:23:49 - 07/27/10
Blighted woodling + Decay can be a really good counter vs BP, and in fact i would conside that the best counter outside of purging.

See this:
http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/25729050/owner/27821 (http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/25729050/owner/27821)

Ok, the ending might not be great, but it's still a lvl 48 almost beating a lvl 51 top-rated player. Pay attention to turn 119 to see how that setup can be a good counter to BP.
 
Edit to add: Yes, that gear loses pretty much always vs spirit, but it does pretty good vs everything else, so i would consider it quite well balanced.


As I said Blighted woodling has its draw back and I don't think put Blighted woodling and Decay together in a summoner's desk is a good idea(charms with direct damage can't be used then;Decoy's effect is too dependent on the timing;Finally I still need to face sp users). My aim is not to beat BP users but tried to have a balanced summon gear to be survival in the coliseum(there are so many sp users out there). Why I mentioned Bp is the charm have the greatest impact on a summoner's gear and I didn't see much has been done to solve the problem(and now I think maybe nobody notice the situation). 
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 04:44:48 - 07/27/10
Wardens have the awesome Ice Tomb, and Slayers have True Sight.

I have no idea why BP should be a problem though, remember, BP needs a shitload of turns to be effective, and needs a shitload of BP to be really effective [around 3-4], a summoner should have already extended his summons long enough to either gain a crapload of heal or gain a crapload of summons to be lethal to said CPBer. A summon deck's problem is spirit, and probably BURST CPB [hello mr.pyro], but CPB ongoing? I'd give them a 50-50.

When I know I will be playing with a BP CPBer, yes I don't think Summoner can't deal with that. But as you said, Summoner already has its natural enemy -- SP. Then it becomes a big problem and not to say how dreadful BP is when in the hands of Zerkers(EA addicts) and Warloads.   
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gtxinsane on 00:59:16 - 07/28/10
So you don't have any problems with Pyros bursting your ass? Imba Magic Banes? Random short decks? Projection? All of which have a much higher damage buildup than BP and also usually counters it as well? I'd find those a bigger problem to deal with because than BP.I think the only reason why people smash BP so much is because they are used to smashing BP so much, but in reality, there have been already a lot of viable strategies that work against it that work against other strategies as well.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Kaervaak on 01:13:14 - 07/28/10
Just give summoners a curse of flesh analog and call it a day.

Ex:
Arcane Homunculus:
summon: 1 melee for each ongoing melee damage modifier on target and 1 magic for each ongoing magic damage modifier during 6 turns
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 04:02:58 - 07/28/10
Just give summoners a curse of flesh analog and call it a day.

Ex:
Arcane Homunculus:
summon: 1 melee for each ongoing melee damage modifier on target and 1 magic for each ongoing magic damage modifier during 6 turns

XD Then it will be as if give Summoners infinite curse of flesh to be used.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Lokey on 19:47:04 - 07/30/10
Uh Louie, before you ask for MOAR SUMMON BUFFS to counter BP...

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/26178130/owner/19846

I'd recommend you stop mixing summons with auras. (Until you get star gauntlets anyway.) Kthxbai.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 00:25:32 - 07/31/10
Uh Louie, before you ask for MOAR SUMMON BUFFS to counter BP...

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/26178130/owner/19846

I'd recommend you stop mixing summons with auras. (Until you get star gauntlets anyway.) Kthxbai.

First, I should say this replay is about bad luck and EAs under BP. Second, there's a reason I put very few auras in my deck --- 5xCrystal of the Dawn. Why I used it it's because not only I have rocket elemental, Fury of the elements(Mostly for sp) and Summoner's mark(which is exactly 30ward). As I tested many times with main rivals in colis, this deck is more balanced and had a even win possibility to most decks. I know the add of the few aura charms may cause some unstability but it's sth I can afford. I don't know if you have used the same gear to attack a single inq, but if you doubt this deck I think you can check replays in colis. The reason I ask for more summon buffs to counter BP is simple --- We(and maybe the Hierarchs) got hurt the most by it's existence, and still I see people trying balance it by putting some new direct damage charms related with opponent's cpb. I also find the EAs' effect in BP deck is underestimate(here is more about zerkers), but still why I asked because I don't know what Summoners have done wrong to let Bp appears in new patchs and still nobody thinks Summoner is suffering from that. Same applies to Hierarchs but maybe they are used to it but I'm not!       
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 00:37:09 - 07/31/10
Btw,why add Crystal of the Dawn is because Summoners don't have enough strong summons in lv44. Zerkers and Warloads with Bp can easily break me in a late game so I have to increase some burst power in the deck. In lv45, I think things would change a little bit and one of the reasons is the star gauntlets you mentioned.

And I used the same gear attacked you, you may know what I meant by bad luck. http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/26187759/owner/50316
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Sparky on 01:35:49 - 07/31/10
http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/26189094/owner/34702

Shortdeck is the answer to everything.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 02:09:54 - 07/31/10
and sp?
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Sparky on 02:25:05 - 07/31/10
and sp?
Reliably beating every strategy with a single deck = OP deck = bad balance. Gotta choose your weakness. Later you can just use Strength in Humility :P
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 02:35:46 - 07/31/10
What I think is not "beating" every strategy but at least a balance gear which it's not a free loss to any popular gear. When a new charm is introduced,  problems are also introduced. I just hope people don't ignore the worst one when people are trying fixing them.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Schutzengel on 07:06:46 - 07/31/10
TBH, Louie. Your deck aren't optimized enough to win against Blood Pact.
The auras, FotE, they just don't fit in a Summoner's deck.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gtxinsane on 13:05:45 - 07/31/10
You are however, trying to become the ultimate summoner burst pro that you've spread yourself thin. As far as i see, you're only having trouble with 2 specific classes, zergs and warwhores, which are supposed to epitomize cpb with or without bp. What about other strats and other jobs? I suppose you roll over them so easily and you just lose terribly to bp that you have to rage it out.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Schutzengel on 13:10:32 - 07/31/10
You also miss an important (http://progenitor-softworks.com/ew/index.php?title=Bel%27Hathal) charm.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Slalderma on 14:01:56 - 07/31/10
http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/26189094/owner/34702

Shortdeck is the answer to everything.

New sig line there.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 15:32:23 - 07/31/10
TBH, Louie. Your deck aren't optimized enough to win against Blood Pact.
The auras, FotE, they just don't fit in a Summoner's deck.

Because in colis, there are plenty of sp users. That's one of the reason why I kept FotE and why not a pure Summoner's desk is because there are not enough strong summon charms available in lv44 and with BP and SP I can't afford be driven into late games, that's why I need Crystal of the Dawn. Actually I skirimished many times and worked out this balanced gear. As I've said I just have very few summons in the gear, and I explain the use of it. It increased some unstability but it gives me the opportunity to get even with most popular gears. Btw Bel'Hathal is a lv45 charm and I'm lv44
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 15:42:55 - 07/31/10
You are however, trying to become the ultimate summoner burst pro that you've spread yourself thin. As far as i see, you're only having trouble with 2 specific classes, zergs and warwhores, which are supposed to epitomize cpb with or without bp. What about other strats and other jobs? I suppose you roll over them so easily and you just lose terribly to bp that you have to rage it out.

I'd like to ask you to read my post again or maybe for the first time?!
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Antiviper on 18:34:06 - 07/31/10
Uh Louie, before you ask for MOAR SUMMON BUFFS to counter BP...

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/26178130/owner/19846

I'd recommend you stop mixing summons with auras. (Until you get star gauntlets anyway.) Kthxbai.

First, I should say this replay is about bad luck and EAs under BP. Second, there's a reason I put very few auras in my deck --- 5xCrystal of the Dawn. Why I used it it's because not only I have rocket elemental, Fury of the elements(Mostly for sp) and Summoner's mark(which is exactly 30ward). As I tested many times with main rivals in colis, this deck is more balanced and had a even win possibility to most decks. I know the add of the few aura charms may cause some unstability but it's sth I can afford. I don't know if you have used the same gear to attack a single inq, but if you doubt this deck I think you can check replays in colis. The reason I ask for more summon buffs to counter BP is simple --- We(and maybe the Hierarchs) got hurt the most by it's existence, and still I see people trying balance it by putting some new direct damage charms related with opponent's cpb. I also find the EAs' effect in BP deck is underestimate(here is more about zerkers), but still why I asked because I don't know what Summoners have done wrong to let Bp appears in new patchs and still nobody thinks Summoner is suffering from that. Same applies to Hierarchs but maybe they are used to it but I'm not!       

All slow strategies will be countered by BP, that's simply working as intended, there is ALWAYS a charm to counter a strategy, summon has no exception too. BP is strong indeed, but BP will decrease the stability of deck a lot(and increase the chance to lost against spi deck). If you want to counter BP, Use an earth deck instead of summon.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Lejes on 18:39:25 - 07/31/10
Because those slow gears were just running rampant over the coliseum, right.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gtxinsane on 00:39:40 - 08/01/10
I've read your post actually, everyday in fact. [Yay for the interwebz and my Foreign Languages R1 skill]. Case and point, there is no 'balanced' strat, one strat will lose to another. I've seen Summon rollover spirit with the right charms, but get rolled over by BP in return. It's a fair world, i don't see the reason for all the nerd-rage.

EDIT: Guardian Angel, Soul Warden, Luminous Idea/ Bel Hathal, Granite Golem, Star Gauntlets. Ring any bells?
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 02:00:25 - 08/01/10
I've read your post actually, everyday in fact. [Yay for the interwebz and my Foreign Languages R1 skill]. Case and point, there is no 'balanced' strat, one strat will lose to another. I've seen Summon rollover spirit with the right charms, but get rolled over by BP in return. It's a fair world, i don't see the reason for all the nerd-rage.

EDIT: Guardian Angel, Soul Warden, Luminous Idea/ Bel Hathal, Granite Golem, Star Gauntlets. Ring any bells?

I'm sorry, but there is! SP is a "balanced" strat and BP melee gear also. And where is the rage you see? I just suggest for a new charm and explain the reason and its use. I have been very cautious to not introduce an "op" charm and even myself doubt its viability. If you don't get wrong, it's the suggestions part of the forum and my goal is not to come here to make complaints. But anyway, it's just a suggestion for a new charm which even I doubt whether it is useful. Don't understand why such a suggestion can touch a nerve. End of the post.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Schutzengel on 02:13:11 - 08/01/10
I'm sorry, but there is! SP is a "balanced" strat and BP melee gear also...
[...]

You are playing the wrong game really. Neither Spirit or Blood Pact are balanced.
Blood Pact can be EASILY countered by most Short Gears out there. And it isn't hard to beat Spirit too.

You must face Spirit, Blood Pacters (which is a pretty general gear that even you can run), Magic Bursters, TankAurers and everything else in Coli to achieve a win yes. You can make a deck to win at least against 80% of the people you may find in colisum in what, 90% of the time.

Again I say. Your gear is weak for a Summoner at Lv. 44.
Blighted Woodling, Black Creeper, Mana Leech, Nymph, Star Gauntlets...

Summoners don't need a new cool awesome charm just to counter Blood Pact. Summoners were always one of the strongest classes in Estiah, and forever they will be.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 02:27:31 - 08/01/10
I'm sorry, but there is! SP is a "balanced" strat and BP melee gear also...
[...]

You are playing the wrong game really. Neither Spirit or Blood Pact are balanced.
Blood Pact can be EASILY countered by most Short Gears out there. And it isn't hard to beat Spirit too.

You must face Spirit, Blood Pacters (which is a pretty general gear that even you can run), Magic Bursters, TankAurers and everything else in Coli to achieve a win yes. You can make a deck to win at least against 80% of the people you may find in colisum in what, 90% of the time.

Again I say. Your gear is weak for a Summoner at Lv. 44.
Blighted Woodling, Black Creeper, Mana Leech, Nymph, Star Gauntlets...

Summoners don't need a new cool awesome charm just to counter Blood Pact. Summoners were always one of the strongest classes in Estiah, and forever they will be.

I don't think you really tried yourself. Blighted Woodling would not solve my problems with zerkers and warloads while cause me to abandon some useful charms and also lower my damage. Black creeper is not good enough charm because it's less useful when dealing with magic and sp. And I had mana leech in my gear. Nymph... I can only say you are not familiar with Summoner's problem and Star Gauntlets is a lv45 charm. By the way, I need to say again what I mean "balanced" is not unbeatable when facing any opponents. But whatever,coliseum is just a casino. I don't care about the problem anymore and I won't open any new thread or reply posts to talk about it again. So let's end the post.  
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Toben on 03:38:19 - 08/01/10
Don't mind Schutz, he just seems to be a little too eager to mini-mod and scare off new posters lately.

So you don't like Black Creeper because even though it's useful against melee, it's not so useful against spirit - but it seems to me that your proposed charm in the first post is also a dead draw against spirit. So...I don't get it. Also don't really get your resistance to using Blighted Woodling, seems like you don't have that many direct damage charms in your deck. Fury of the Elements is cool and all, but it's only 60 damage, split - it's not making you kill people as much faster as you think.

I do get that Blood Pact (and ongoing generally) is harsh on things like Blessing of the Earth, but well - that was true even before Blood Pact, even if Blood Pact makes it more true/more common. Blessing is really an anti-burst, anti-spirit charm.

Coliseum is a casino, sure, but you can play the odds. If you have a deck and you keep losing to melee, add in some more anti-melee stuff. Now yeah, I know, Murphy's Law, you throw in those Black Creepers or Blighted Woodlings, you'll wind up in an all-Pyros-and-Spirit bracket the next night; but keep track, over like a week or so, of what's popular, what's common, and eventually you'll get it right. And you'll get it right demonstrably more often than if you just decide that your deck can't be improved with any existing charms and expect the game to conform with the way you think your deck should be. I don't think there's anything wrong with your suggested charm (except that what summoners need most is group charms) but there are already summoner anti-melee charms out there.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 04:41:56 - 08/01/10
Don't mind Schutz, he just seems to be a little too eager to mini-mod and scare off new posters lately.

So you don't like Black Creeper because even though it's useful against melee, it's not so useful against spirit - but it seems to me that your proposed charm in the first post is also a dead draw against spirit. So...I don't get it. Also don't really get your resistance to using Blighted Woodling, seems like you don't have that many direct damage charms in your deck. Fury of the Elements is cool and all, but it's only 60 damage, split - it's not making you kill people as much faster as you think.

I do get that Blood Pact (and ongoing generally) is harsh on things like Blessing of the Earth, but well - that was true even before Blood Pact, even if Blood Pact makes it more true/more common. Blessing is really an anti-burst, anti-spirit charm.

Coliseum is a casino, sure, but you can play the odds. If you have a deck and you keep losing to melee, add in some more anti-melee stuff. Now yeah, I know, Murphy's Law, you throw in those Black Creepers or Blighted Woodlings, you'll wind up in an all-Pyros-and-Spirit bracket the next night; but keep track, over like a week or so, of what's popular, what's common, and eventually you'll get it right. And you'll get it right demonstrably more often than if you just decide that your deck can't be improved with any existing charms and expect the game to conform with the way you think your deck should be. I don't think there's anything wrong with your suggested charm (except that what summoners need most is group charms) but there are already summoner anti-melee charms out there.

For the part that I make you confused, let me try to make the explaination. I think Black Creeper is not good enough(but actually myself is not so sure about the conclusion). It supposed to be best suit when against melee opponent. But since I don't have many melee damage in my gear(even with "or" summons), they can be easily absorbed by Warloads(say,Battle-Forged Lance). Zerkers usually bring lots of EAs which makes mutiple Black Creeper less effective. Like Schutz suggested, I had Mana Leech in my gear and the charm is only good when you're able to get through opponent's ward. Also, I do think it would be better if I try to more or less focus my damage on magic instead of dual damage. And right, Fury of the Elements are not suit in summon's gear but it's such a balanced charm that I can't easily throw it away. For Blighted Woodling, as my skirmish experience it doesn't work well enough with Zerkers and Warload which are my main concerns. When you summon it, it doesn't deal any damage and its no use against Sp and in the long run I can't afford to abandon every single direct damage charm. Actually it is really good for opponents like magic or melee other than zerkers and warloads.

And yes, the proposed charm can do nothing with sp. Why? Because I'm just asking to give summoner more of a choice. I don't ask it to become something a summon charm like deal damage according to opponent's cpb or even with wp because I know people will say it is op.

The gear I build is not for SP or Pryos but tried to play most popular tactics(short desk excluded) with a possibilty to win. I agree that with more time maybe I'll find better use of current charms. You may find I'm a stubborn person but some of the suggestions I've already tried and I also tested a bit(maybe not enough). Thank you for your reply.  
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Schutzengel on 05:48:19 - 08/01/10
Don't mind Schutz, he just seems to be a little too eager to mini-mod and scare off new posters lately.
[...]
You're wrong Toben.
I just think that his Blood Pact issue is the same issue anyone have with it. It is not a summoner's problem and I am sure a summoner is capable of winning against it. THOUGH Blood Pact is supposed to beat people who tries to sustain a longer fight, like Summoners and Tankers.

Louie. I am pretty sure your problems will be gone as soon as you hit 45 and have access to awesome Summoner charms, Like Bel, Gauntlets, Granite Golem...
And these are charms that won't mess with your deck if you are facing spirit or other classes (Bel is a Pyro killer).

Sometimes you just can't face something with your actual charms, but as soon as you level up and get access to better charms, you are done.

The same thing happens when people complain about pyro groups in Coli at 42 because of Erythic Flames. Ask Pyros what happen when they get Lv. 44, they reign just ends.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 06:27:29 - 08/01/10
    Yeah I know I will get a boost in the lv45 and I'm looking forward to see if things will be changed. Thank you for your reply,Schutz.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gtxinsane on 06:30:06 - 08/01/10
Agree with schutz, in fact, even before they get their bel hathals and what not, summoners still tend to extend their summons so much that the damage offset dealt by the summons is enough to kill said zerk/warlord sometimes even Pyro by the time BP/Damage over Time really shines. There is no Balanced Gear in estiah, Zerks have to buildup a crapload of CPB early on else they get toasted, mobbed, zerged, purged, spirited or wooden sworded. Warlords need to stay alive long enough to stab people to death.

Also, i think it has been concluded that summoners are one of the most versatile classes out there, i don't really see any problem they should encounter. Heck, i get jealous of summoners because they have all those sweet extenders that no other class have.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 06:34:56 - 08/01/10
Agree with schutz, in fact, even before they get their bel hathals and what not, summoners still tend to extend their summons so much that the damage offset dealt by the summons is enough to kill said zerk/warlord sometimes even Pyro by the time BP/Damage over Time really shines. There is no Balanced Gear in estiah, Zerks have to buildup a crapload of CPB early on else they get toasted, mobbed, zerged, purged, spirited or wooden sworded. Warlords need to stay alive long enough to stab people to death.

Also, i think it has been concluded that summoners are one of the most versatile classes out there, i don't really see any problem they should encounter. Heck, i get jealous of summoners because they have all those sweet extenders that no other class have.

Oh my, then maybe you really need to check how it works out in 40-51 coliseums. I don't want to discuss the problem anymore but I have to say you don't know the situation.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Gtxinsane on 06:59:51 - 08/01/10
Oh, was this for the post 40s? I never knew. Sorry about that then.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Zenetar on 07:03:45 - 08/01/10
gogo 10 pages! :laugh:
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 07:21:11 - 08/01/10

Also, i think it has been concluded that summoners are one of the most versatile classes out there, i don't really see any problem they should encounter. Heck, i get jealous of summoners because they have all those sweet extenders that no other class have.

Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Schutzengel on 12:29:55 - 08/01/10
Oh my, then maybe you really need to check how it works out in 40-51 coliseums. I don't want to discuss the problem anymore but I have to say you don't know the situation.
Summoners are still the ONLY class capable of summon decently AND still do ANY other role with no problem.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Louie on 12:55:47 - 08/01/10
Oh my, then maybe you really need to check how it works out in 40-51 coliseums. I don't want to discuss the problem anymore but I have to say you don't know the situation.
Summoners are still the ONLY class capable of summon decently AND still do ANY other role with no problem.

I think just let the post end is a better idea ^_^ This topic can be solved in the Class section.
Title: Re: A new summon charm(mainly for countering BP)
Post by: Schutzengel on 12:58:55 - 08/01/10
Oh my, then maybe you really need to check how it works out in 40-51 coliseums. I don't want to discuss the problem anymore but I have to say you don't know the situation.
Summoners are still the ONLY class capable of summon decently AND still do ANY other role with no problem.

I think just let the post end is a better idea ^_^ This topic can be solved in the Class section.
You are the owner. Lock it.