Estiah Forum

Game support => Beginner tips => Topic started by: Seasonaltnt on 20:00:53 - 10/17/09

Title: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 20:00:53 - 10/17/09
Um, what are the buff and boost rates when we're talking about:
Penetration?
Extra Action?
Drain?
AoE?

Anything else?
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Manores on 20:46:11 - 10/17/09
You don't need them. You'll discard them all anyway  :-*
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Forgetful on 21:32:53 - 10/17/09
charms with or without penetration get 100% of boost.
EA get only 20% from ongoing boosts.
drain gets 65% of boosts.
AoE gets 130% of boosts (i believe that applies only against multiple targets and the damage is split equally for each).
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Ixia on 22:00:15 - 10/17/09
Forgetful, I've read other posts in the forum where you talk about reduction to damage modifiers or reduction to penetration.

...so what's the "state of art" by now?

Quote
charms with or without penetration get 100% of boost
but how about penetration loss??

THX in advance
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Forgetful on 00:10:52 - 10/18/09
- The damage formula has been reviewed. Damage modifiers will no longer be reduced when used on charms with penetration. Instead, the penetration will be reduced.
from patch notes.

haven't worked out the formula yet. sorry. the initial idea is here: http://forum.estiah.com/index.php?topic=3251.0
one thing's for sure. even if the formula is the same, the reduction coefficient is much bigger.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Ixia on 02:34:26 - 10/18/09
THX! Very enlightening.

I read some other posts. Discarded that one becouse it was in the "suggestions" setion.

One question: Boost is ongoing as well as +to next, right?
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Schutzengel on 03:40:53 - 10/18/09
[...]
AoE gets 130% of boosts (i believe that applies only against multiple targets and the damage is split equally for each).
Where did you find this? I would like to know.

AoE gets 100% boost. Then, when it is casted, you divide by the number of the targets MINUS one. To a minimal of two.

Example:
Play With Fire, +75 to Next Magic.
Then, Rain of Fire (40 AoE).

You hit 4 targets.
75 [total buff] / (4 - 1) [targets] = 25 [buff] + 40 [rain of fire damage] = 65 [this is the damage you are going to do]

And I am 100% sure about it.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Zadown on 05:10:31 - 10/18/09
Schutz -- that formula doesn't give the same results as this fight here:

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/11654342/owner/35968

Check out rounds 43, 44 and 45 -- +36 boost, two targets, the charm only gets +24.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Schutzengel on 05:28:52 - 10/18/09
Schutz -- that formula doesn't give the same results as this fight here:

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/11654342/owner/35968

Check out rounds 43, 44 and 45 -- +36 boost, two targets, the charm only gets +24.

Of course not, cause the math is different when you face two targets.
It works perfectly against 3 or higher.

When you face just two targets, the boost is divided by 1.5

2 BDB does 36

36 / 1.5 = 24
24 + 22 = 46

Right?
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Zadown on 06:02:14 - 10/18/09
Yeah, that makes sense. It was missing from your earlier explanation, though.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Forgetful on 08:11:49 - 10/18/09
cool. thanks. it seems i'm the happiest one. i did some math on a gvg battle report so i ended up with +30%. your formula makes sense. from now on i'll blindly follow it.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Koralin on 02:28:15 - 10/21/09
I've yet to see the 1.3*Boost/NumTargets formula fail by more than 1, which can come down to rounding, but I've seen the other one not fit at all.  The 130% one works for the aforementioned case--still 24 with rounding.  I don't have the exceptions for the other one saved though, I'll keep an eye out.  They tend to come out to similar values which is probably why people thought the other was right for so long.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Broodax on 04:26:18 - 10/25/09
For some reason the example was edited out, but Nana was referring to multi-attacks with boost.

I'm not sure of the exact formula behind it, though it has been tweaked over time so that boosts don't benefit AoE attacks 1:1, otherwise boosts would be 4x as effective against 4 targets, which is definitely overpowered.

Here's a combat log that may give people a better sense of just how much boost benefits AoE.  (Edited just to show Destructobeam's boost)

Torq uses [Cleric Power Infusion]
Destructobeam's next magic attack is increased by up to 34

Destructobeam uses [Banishing Flame Stone]
Sasquatch takes 6 magic damage (27 warded)
Alastor takes 33 magic damage
Croissant takes 33 magic damage
Atomsk takes 33 magic damage

Banishing Flame Stone does 22 damage each, so that's 11 damage extra each attack against 4 players, a total benefit of 44 because of a 34 damage boost.  (Bringing 88 total damage up to 132) A little bit better than 1:1, but this is only for 4v4.

Your formula fits this.
The power boost reduction on AE depends on the number of target.
Against 4 players, CPI + BFS will do 33 damage to all
Against 3 players the same charms will do something like 38
If only one enemy is alive, those two charms will make 54 damage, the buff being applied to 100% as if it was not an aoe charm.

But it does not fit this.  38 - 22 = 16.  But 34 * 1.3 / 3 = 14.7, not enough boost.  Schutz's formula does fit, though: 34/2 = 17 (not exact, but note Lez said "something like"). 

Schutz has a fight linked in the best fights thread as well where he has 905 boost, with 301 applying to each of 4 targets.  905 * 1.3 / 4 = 294.125, again not enough, but 904/3 = 301.33, exactly right.

The reason you don't often see fights where the * 1.3 version doesn't work is that in a 4 player fight, multiplying by 1.3 and dividing by 4 is almost exactly the same as dividing by 3, so you don't notice the difference unless there's a huge boost.  The right formula is definitely the one schutz gave.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Lezard on 16:17:25 - 10/25/09
These formulas are not meant to be secret, you just had to ask :)

AOE:
B' = B / ( Number of targets * 0.75 )

Penetration loss:
P' = P * ( 3 * Damage / ( 3 * Damage + boost ) )


Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 00:33:22 - 10/26/09
These formulas are not meant to be secret, you just had to ask :)

I did ask.  =P
But we know you're busy.  (:
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Curyos on 15:29:03 - 10/26/09
Drain gets 65% of ongoing boosts.  What does it get from + to next boosts?
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Schutzengel on 15:35:12 - 10/26/09
Drain gets 65% of ongoing boosts.  What does it get from + to next boosts?
[...]
drain gets 65% of boosts.[/b]
[...]
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Curyos on 15:50:05 - 10/27/09
Is there no difference between an ongoing boost and a +to next boost?  Is that true for EAs and AOE too?
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Schutzengel on 15:52:39 - 10/27/09
Is there no difference between an ongoing boost and a +to next boost?  Is that true for EAs and AOE too?
For Drains and AoE, no.
For EA, of course.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Broodax on 16:29:37 - 10/27/09
Is there no difference between an ongoing boost and a +to next boost?  Is that true for EAs and AOE too?
For Drains and AoE, no.
For EA, of course.

This seems unclear.  You mean, for EA of course there is a difference.  EA only gets a small percentage of +ongoing, but gets the full value of +next.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Schutzengel on 17:27:40 - 10/27/09
This seems unclear.  You mean, for EA of course there is a difference.  EA only gets a small percentage of +ongoing, but gets the full value of +next.
Yeah, I forgot the next thing, answered just the ongoing
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 20:39:14 - 10/31/09
Does Buffing and boosting have effect on Charm Combos, or do Charm combos do a set amount of damage/effect?
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Schutzengel on 23:59:21 - 10/31/09
Does Buffing and boosting have effect on Charm Combos, or do Charm combos do a set amount of damage/effect?
Buffing = Boosting

And yes.
Both To Next and Ongoing.

If a friend plays Flame Scabbard, and in my turn I do Blue Dragon Bone, and after that a Strike. The Flame Strike will come boosted.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 02:22:09 - 11/01/09
As I learned, buffing is for next attack, boosting is ongoing.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 18:29:09 - 11/14/09
Sorry for a double post, but I wanted to bump this.

If buffing lowers penetration, does Sap increase penetration?  And what about the values, if I use a -100 to next melee, how much is it actually decreased by if penetration is the variable in question?
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Schutzengel on 18:38:25 - 11/14/09
The damage is full decreased, and the Prenetration doesn't change.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Grace on 02:32:01 - 01/02/11
AOE:
B' = B / ( Number of targets * 0.75 )

Penetration loss:
P' = P * ( 3 * Damage / ( 3 * Damage + boost ) )

What is the formula if the AOE attack occurs during an Extra Action? Does the normal 20% factor come into play?

Scenario:
Turn 1: Player uses [Icy Winds]
Player's magic attacks are increased by up to 5
Player gains 1 actions

Turn 2: Player uses [Icy Winds]
Player's magic attacks are increased by up to 5
Player gains 1 actions

ongoing buff: 10
number of targets: 4
B' = 10 / (4 * 0.75) = 10 / 3 = 3 buff toward each target

Now let's say we use an AOE charm during Turn 3. Since Turn 3 is an Extra Action, do we apply 20% to the buff? That basically wipes it out.. hmm

B' = 0.20 * 10 / (4 * 0.75) = 2 / 3 = 0 buff toward each target

Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Bazabaza on 02:56:56 - 01/02/11
turn 3 is not an extra action. extra action charms are those that specifically say so, for example icy winds. they let you use another charm after them, but that charm is not an extra action charm just because it got played after icy winds (unless it says that it grants an extra action too). so if icy winds would do any damage, the boost would be reduced, but the boost is not reduced for the charm played afterwards because that charm is just a normal charm. there are no charms that would be AOE and EA at the same time, to my knowledge.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Qqchampion on 06:56:18 - 01/02/11
turn 3 is not an extra action. extra action charms are those that specifically say so, for example icy winds. they let you use another charm after them, but that charm is not an extra action charm just because it got played after icy winds (unless it says that it grants an extra action too). so if icy winds would do any damage, the boost would be reduced, but the boost is not reduced for the charm played afterwards because that charm is just a normal charm. there are no charms that would be AOE and EA at the same time, to my knowledge.

You could still get an extra action from death spin, blacknerve mixture, or borrowed time. The normal 20% factor should apply in that case, though I can't confirm that it does.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Misha on 07:34:29 - 01/02/11
An AoE attack used on an extra action does indeed only get 20% ongoing.
Title: Re: Buffing and Boosting
Post by: Sparky on 11:09:23 - 01/02/11
http://forum.estiah.com/index.php?topic=5215.0