Author Topic: Things that didn't work  (Read 1829 times)

Quazee

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Things that didn't work
« on: 08:06:47 - 06/08/14 »
Disclaimer #1: This post is going to be rather long and rather whiny/abrasive/annoying. Brace yourselves.
Disclaimer #2: I haven't followed the E2 development, I haven't watched E2 replays, I'm not even sure if I'll be playing E2. As such, I'm merely forwarding the following for a selfless reason: hoping that E2 will be a great game, learning from the less fortunate endeavours of its predecessor.


Let's start, shall we? In no particular order:
  • Guild warfare. I've served as battle master in three guilds, ranging across the whole spectrum. Two were very large, newbie-friendly, rating-doesn't-matter entities (HIT, OOFM). The other one was a smaller, no-noobs-allowed, beat-them-all entity (AH). GW didn't really work in E1 due to several reasons.
    • High-end warfare. The penalties (time-wise, GAP-wise) for laying sieges are too steep, compared to regular battles. Sure, some other stuff happens when laying sieges (rating, losing building points); some penalties would be reasonable. But the gap is just too wide. In HiT there were many (active) members with 3-6k GHP, as we didn't do GHP stacking. In OOFM, I've gained ~100k GHP for them in roughly half a year. At the other end of the spectrum, the two guilds which dominated the last few years of E1 (AH, KD) struggle to stay in the 20-25k stacked GHP range.
    • The n+1 problem. Here's a link to a blog, describing EVE gameplay. Newbies in E1 aren't only not helpful, they're actually detrimental when it comes to the serious business (read: rated warfare). A squad of level 10 characters will get obliterated by a squad of level 50+ characters, even when the latter squad plays at 90% penalty. The logical outcome is that serious-business guilds avoid newbies like the plague.
    • Training Grounds. Arguably most useful to the guilds which pursue rated warfare. Isn't it ironical that these very guilds lack the spare GAP to run TGs in order to optimize their performance?
  • Extra actions. Severely overpowered/overplayed in E1.
    • Availability. Too many, way too many EAs in E1, especially considering the counters.
    • Mechanical counters. No reasonable ways to slow down your opponent(s). You can't stun them at all, way too few MAR effects. To make it worse, MAR effects get countered themselves by the much more common cleanse effects.
    • Gameplay counters. Spirit, banes, right? Spirit isn't all that effective at slaying shortdecks padded with EAs. Banes, yes, do work to some extent. Neither of those two is the ultimate counter to EAs.
    • The spam factor. Regular EAs are one thing, endlessly spammable EAs another one. I'm looking at you, Kiai/Skull Greaves.
    • Actions per turn. The default value, 4, is fine when dealing with lowbie/crap EAs (e.g. Quick Blade). It's less appropriate when the higher-level EAs come into play (again, gasp at Kiai/SG).
  • Exhaustion. Exhaustion/spirit sound good on paper, but the reality is rather grim.
    • No middle ground. In PvE, the overwhelming majority of encounters are either specifically designed to be tackled by exhaustion/spirit, either specifically designed to make exhaustion/spirit fully irrelevant. Too few, way too few examples of exhaustion/spirit being just a viable alternative at the intended/nominal level (e.g. Bloody Deliverance F2). In PvP... well, let's say that there is an annoyingly large proportion of polarization; shortdecks/EAs and spirit, spirit and shortdecks/EAs.
    • Spirit rune. Just because there are some (read: a few) PvE encounters that are specifically designed to be tackled with exhaustion/spirit, we must make sure that the spirit rune is available to anyone. The logical outcome, ridiculously low attribute requirements for most spirit charms. Unlike most other runes (and associated decks/strategies), spirit is not a specialized path.
    • Raison d'etre. Why was the spirit rune created in the first place? To make the design of a few exhaustion-based PvE encounters possible? Most likely not, and that's merely a side effect. This rune is there to keep shortdecks/EAs in place, PvP-wise. It fails spectacularly at being the ultimate counter for shortdecks/EAs, but it's arguably too strong against some full decks (e.g. summons, CPB-light direct damage).
  • Area/group-wide effects. Sound good on paper, should provide interesting/fun mechanics (and associated decks/strategies). The reality of balancing them has proven to be, again and again, a nightmare. Fervor's Flames, Circle of Hands, Curse of Pandamius, Prismatic Cannon, the freaking Kiai... all reminders of an old saying. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
  • Casuals. Freaking casuals, man, the plague of the land. Yes, it's a tongue-in-cheek label, in case you need reassuring.
    • Character/power progression. It's easy to see that E1 was designed with casuals in mind. Before level 40, mechanics (and associated decks/strategies) are scarce. Look at multihits, extenders/shorteners, fun stuff (e.g. equalization, steal modifiers, cleanse/normalize/purge, attach-to-target indirect effects and so on). They aren't there, which in turn leads to very boring PvE/PvP content, at lower levels in order to prevent getting newbies/casuals suffocated with gameplay subtleties. Where's the catch? Most casuals never reach the end game. Look at how many characters reach level 50. Look at the completion rates for the best content of the game (KK/WWAMS/SiS/FotD/BD/UB, high-end PvE achievements, Highlord).
    • Vox populi. I don't know if any of you (still) browse old GD/S threads. I do, for both fun/giggles and the historical value. And I see a staggering amount of complaints/requests/suggestions coming from people that played E1 quite casually, people that have vanished into the ether after only a few months of playing (typically ~6, with the most stubborn casuals pushing that to 18-24). Nota bene, I am not saying that casuals/newbies should be ignored. I urge the bunnies instead to make sure that the few vets that are still around (Sparky/Misha/Sheira/Gabbin/QQ, to name folks active lately in the E2-related threads) are given the proper weight. That's it, nothing more.

Other E1 vets are welcome to share their own "didn't really work" bits.

Nipal

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #1 on: 09:10:12 - 06/09/14 »
while you are perfectly correct about all the issues you've pointed out, it does seem you haven't tried
e2 beta yet :) the game is actually so different that all you've said simply didn't apply, mostly because
of the real-time battle system.

- guild warfare
it hasn't been implemented yet coz we have no ideas about what we want to do.

- extra actions
not present in the new battle system.

- exhaustion
you have control over your actions in real time so you can adapt your defense/attack much easier.
and exhaustion is a core tactic in TCG, that's why it exists in estiah which is loosely based on a
card/deck system.

- aoe
e2 aoe has form and selective targeting (cross, line, circle etc.) so, nothing alike e1's aoe again.

- casuals
we've always tried to make estiah an "easy to start but hard to finish" game. e1 is way too geeky
and hardcore so the first levels of e2 are basically a walk in a park. level cap in e2 is L40 and
everybody should reach it (in fewer than one month). then the hard contents start.

anyway, if you've been playing e1 this long, it won't hurt that you take 10min to try e2 open beta.
then you'll see how different it is  :P










Seniunas

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #2 on: 19:46:34 - 06/09/14 »
well, you missed probably most important, yeah, greatest ally, or fiercest enemy, it's how you look, - RNG,

ofc i don't know about OB situation, wasn't playing some few monts already, but i felt it's even worse than was in E1, making something more complex was pain, getting wrong source all time, control over fight more like trivial, but that's just me :)

and i suppose fights got much easier, or exp way bigger, because i don't see how casual could get 40 with CB E2  :laugh:

Qqchampion

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #3 on: 20:35:19 - 06/09/14 »
well, you missed probably most important, yeah, greatest ally, or fiercest enemy, it's how you look, - RNG,

ofc i don't know about OB situation, wasn't playing some few monts already, but i felt it's even worse than was in E1, making something more complex was pain, getting wrong source all time, control over fight more like trivial, but that's just me :)

and i suppose fights got much easier, or exp way bigger, because i don't see how casual could get 40 with CB E2  :laugh:

I don't really think RNG plays a bigger role than in e1. It felt that way to me for a couple fights in the closed beta (especially early on) but once I figured out how to make my gears flow RNG was rarely an issue. I don't think it's too hard to develop gears where you can get a good rhythm going and not have to worry too much about what source is coming up next, and even optimize it to hit most of the link bonuses. Most of the time when I lose a fight I've already beaten once, it's because I misplayed my gear. It does get kind of tough to make a gear with more than 2 or 3 different runes that works together at all, though. I'd like to see that become more doable especially in pvp.
[21:39] <Morthalius> I'm going to be farming crystalite sprouts till lil baby jesus is back in diapers as decrepit geriatric jesus :(

Seniunas

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #4 on: 21:05:24 - 06/09/14 »
well, you missed probably most important, yeah, greatest ally, or fiercest enemy, it's how you look, - RNG,

ofc i don't know about OB situation, wasn't playing some few monts already, but i felt it's even worse than was in E1, making something more complex was pain, getting wrong source all time, control over fight more like trivial, but that's just me :)

and i suppose fights got much easier, or exp way bigger, because i don't see how casual could get 40 with CB E2  :laugh:

I don't really think RNG plays a bigger role than in e1. It felt that way to me for a couple fights in the closed beta (especially early on) but once I figured out how to make my gears flow RNG was rarely an issue. I don't think it's too hard to develop gears where you can get a good rhythm going and not have to worry too much about what source is coming up next, and even optimize it to hit most of the link bonuses. Most of the time when I lose a fight I've already beaten once, it's because I misplayed my gear. It does get kind of tough to make a gear with more than 2 or 3 different runes that works together at all, though. I'd like to see that become more doable especially in pvp.

my point wasn't about simple 2-3 runes deck, i get good with 4 different runes/2 colors, but when it comes to 3 colors (famous rune dance in 6-5, only me and sparky done it, and not right way, but exploiting weakness of mechanic for that fight), or like 5 different sources, thats real pain, still remember puppets final fight trying with 4 colors, just to get that green key (and we were clueless on it)... RNG is pain in all TCG, but when you are in need to get specific resources to play specific charms, it gets much worse, you see decent card in your hand, you know it's best time to use it, but simply you can't, wrong sources coming

well, maybe i will find few free hours to jump in OB, to see situation now, and maybe make more objective opinion on current situation

Gabbin

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #5 on: 21:38:48 - 06/09/14 »
Wait, did you just say only you and sparky beat 6-5?  (Also, I think you might mean 7-5 Dancing Runes?  Which isnt really hard, its more of a problem of communicating what it wanted you to do)

Also, getting the key in puppets is a bonus/special case?  It seems odd to use it as an example of general game play?
« Last Edit: 21:44:36 - 06/09/14 by Gabbin »
Everythings easier in pseudocode!

Sparky

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #6 on: 08:07:40 - 06/10/14 »
Although this isn't the original point of the post anymore, allow me to weigh in, in response to Seniunas:
- I agree with Gabbin on 7-5 (Dancing Runes). Also I have almost no issue with a campaign fight being a bit RNG and sometimes requiring you to try again 5-10 times to get it right, because you only need to complete a given campaign fight only once ever. It's more of a problem when the same happens in a dungeon fight that you'll want to clear several times to farm all the items and charms it offers.

- The puppets' final fight is actually easy to beat while fulfilling the special condition once you know it. You just need to finetune your deck for it, I think I had 100% success rate or close enough back in the closed beta, once my deck had been tweaked for it. Besides, the whole puppets dungeon is quite gimmick and different from the rest, I don't think your argument can reliably take this as an example representative of the whole game.
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Seniunas

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #7 on: 10:27:25 - 06/10/14 »
hm, forget campaign, that was just couple examples were you can't just smash all you see with simple 2-3 runes deck, so you have use something complex, and complex gear has way less win ratio. So question, what you will choose for farming dungeons 2-3 runes easy kill deck or complex low win ratio? Sure, maybe couple times you go for fun/complex, then will be, why the heck i should waste time, i can do it with axe/mace/fire, shortdeck nightblade or spirit my way (running spirit so easy in E2, even without spirit source)

sorry, 7-5, was more than 3 months ago, my mistake, and v1 version was beaten by me and sparky, with green charms, probably wrong example, got fixed after delay on break bug, so that got easier, but it's about experience in running 3 color deck, not beating it

for puppets my point was experience of using all 4 colours in same gear, not goal we were trying to achieve

so i'm just saying running complex deck on regular basis is hell of RNG, and if you try keep up with chaining link, it gets even worse

Nipal

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #8 on: 11:27:11 - 06/10/14 »
(you guys are masters of thread hijacking)

in e1, RNG screws you over and doesn't negotiate.

in e2, RNG lets you think you're in control and lets you choose cards to play,
but still screws you by giving you the worst card at the worst time.

so... yeah, RNG is still evil, only it got smarter.

Seniunas

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Re: Things that didn't work
« Reply #9 on: 20:12:10 - 06/10/14 »
here came bunny and put all in places  :laugh: