Author Topic: Stunning Yoga  (Read 3158 times)

Hellios

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Stunning Yoga
« on: 02:21:22 - 01/04/13 »
So I recently noticed that when I get stunned and Kiai gods like me, that extra action breaks the stun so it's not that devastating once I get stunned.
Then there is Yoga Training, which gives me meele boost and willpower whenever I get stunned, which seems awesome vs constant spirit decks I keep meeting.
When I'm stunned, I dont use charms, so spirit is not going down and willpower it builds protects me even more. And it all gives meele boost.
So I wanted to build it around that. I picked up other charms that might work with this, but I can't get it to work. I either die with huge boost waiting to proc or I get killed too fast.
My problem is that majority of those charms are kinda low level (<=40) and I am lvl 48 now, where people use harder hitting stuff.
Still, I like the idea and I'd want to maybe make it work.
Can you suggest maybe some charms I should chase?

This is my list so far:
Build Strength x5
Release Seal x5
Superior Fury Potion x5
Build Up x5
Hyphine Injection x5
Kiai x5
Mach Fist x5
Rapier x5
Yoga Training x5
Eroded Wave Splitter x5
+11 still open spirit

Sparky

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Re: Stunning Yoga
« Reply #1 on: 02:48:25 - 01/04/13 »
A couple of things:

1) Kiai is a group charm. It's devastating in 4v4 (GvG), excellent in 3v3, good in 2v2, nothing you want to use in 1v1. The 20% chance for EA during 4 turns makes it basically 80% chance of it granting you at least 1 EA, and the charm does nothing else.

2) Self-stun charms are often appealing on paper but are most of the time a lot too slow. Speed is crucial in Estiah, extra actions (EAs) are very powerful no matter the big disadvantage they get against banes. This is mostly due to the speed factor. The problem mostly lies in your having not a single chance to draw a charm (ie to do something) during one entire turn after you play a self-stun, especially if you play some very early in the fight it can kill you very fast as you haven't had a chance yet to even build up any defenses to give you time. For these reasons (among others) it's commonly considered suicidal to build up a deck with too many self-stuns, especially if you build a full deck (as opposed to shortdecking to be sure to get the charms you want early enough).
As for the spirit argument, on paper it would seem that while EA make you exhaust faster, self-stun on the opposite should be strong versus spirit. Reality is totally different: extra actions can help you a great deal against spirit (so long as you don't abuse it) meanwhile self-stun usually stands no chance. The willpower boost on Yoga Training (not even cumulative) won't help you much with that, the loss in speed you suffer is a lot too prejudicial. Also note that while Yoga Training's aura lasts 8 turns, realistically you'll trigger it 2-3 times at best (out of the 8 turns) as it only triggers when you are stunned and you need to play charms (ie not be stunned) in order to stun yourself. I love that charm for its uniqueness but it's very hard to use competitively in PvP.

3) Now as far as reasonable amounts of self-stunning charms are used, combining them with kiai in a team of 2, 3 or 4 can work to some extent. But keep in mind that this is mostly efficient with auras (as are self-stuns, they mostly work in delayed damage strategies) where your auras (or summons if you go this route) still trigger when you are stunned. Some even have synergies (Jasper Rosary for instance). The list you've shown though contains too many charms. Also the charms with a direct EA (Mach Fist or Rapier for instance) won't really cancel out the self-stun turns you've got. One last thing about Estiah is that you don't want to stack up too much boost (unless you go for AoE burst in team matches, but that's different and is rarely seen with melee, though not unthinkable). Especially when you build up cpb (constant power boost, with charms like build strength in this case) you want to use direct melee hits as often as you can. A charm like Hyphine Injection, lastly, only provides +107 to next with the huge con of a self-stun, which is at best an effective 53.5 damage/turn. I'm pretty confident there are way better melee charms out there, be it even just the lvl 40 melee weapons from the PvP store.

If anything, I don't want to kill your high spirits about trying to make creative decks (on the contrary, I fully support all trials and experiences in the matter!) but you'll see yourself through experimenting that this won't really work the way you've started and you'll need to tweak this a bit in my opinion. You also feel like you're trying to do too many things at once, it's usually best to stick to one general strategy (be it building up cpb and hitting as often as possible to use it, getting big +next boosts with EAs to use them fast enough, stack auras for a rather long match and use their bonuses, etc). Charms like Release Seal will work very well with Boiling Blood/Premonition for instance, with Skull Greaves and Retreat, along with direct damage charms, especially EAs (Mach Fist, Rapier). Superior Fury Potion is only a +72 to next (not even a direct hit) with a small con, not really worth it anymore past lvl 45. Build up is a bit slow in my opinion, could work in team matches powered by kiai and extended though. Build Strength is awfully slow for what little boost it provides, maybe okay in a kiai-powered group but that'd be hard to make it work otherwise. Not outright impossible though (Jasper Rosary...) but you'll need a lot of luck for it to work like you want in a fight I think. Eroded Wave Splitter can be a cool charm, as with all double hits you want to use it with cpb (cpb applies to both hits on a double-hit charm so you basically get the boost twice, which is why it's awesome).

Hope I've not discouraged you at all about deck building! I'm available for all your questions/remarks about this all of course and will be pleased to try to help you out if I can. :)
[15:57]   <Evangeline88>   nah, Slyguy is exceptional ... he can deal with everyone easily?

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Quazee

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Re: Stunning Yoga
« Reply #2 on: 09:06:42 - 01/04/13 »
1) Kiai is a group charm. It's devastating in 4v4 (GvG), excellent in 3v3, good in 2v2, nothing you want to use in 1v1. The 20% chance for EA during 4 turns makes it basically 80% chance of it granting you at least 1 EA, and the charm does nothing else.

1-0.8^4 ~ 59%, if not extended.

Sparky

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Re: Stunning Yoga
« Reply #3 on: 15:27:01 - 01/04/13 »
1) Kiai is a group charm. It's devastating in 4v4 (GvG), excellent in 3v3, good in 2v2, nothing you want to use in 1v1. The 20% chance for EA during 4 turns makes it basically 80% chance of it granting you at least 1 EA, and the charm does nothing else.

1-0.8^4 ~ 59%, if not extended.
Ugh yeah, I was already thinking of the rest I was gonna say and didn't even bother doing actually proper math. Thanks for correcting (makes it even worse in 1v1 actually).
[15:57]   <Evangeline88>   nah, Slyguy is exceptional ... he can deal with everyone easily?

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Seniunas

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Re: Stunning Yoga
« Reply #4 on: 11:53:54 - 01/05/13 »
Hm, imho self stuns are way too slow in pvp, as said sparky, you need speed, or just tons of defence with slow strategy to win. Self stuns against spirit aren't good,  you save 1 charm (skiping turn), but enemy gets like extra action and do 2 hits instead of 1, so you lose more than 1 spirit this way.  Better just add some wp charms, Luminous Idea for example is what you want almost in any pvp deck, Release karma are nice too in melee deck at your lvl.  And you need stick to 1 strategy, not mix few of them, like burst, self stun, cpb, delayed auras...

And EA against banes not so big disadvantage, if you make deck right.