Author Topic: Paladin-esque  (Read 8403 times)

Astrolabia

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #15 on: 16:50:20 - 12/10/12 »
Yes, Sirius does 98 damage, and that's all it does. Marfik, Algol, Dubhe, Homan have higher damage potentials. Saiph, Lesath, Alcyone, and yes, Thabit disrupt the oppponent in various ways. Hamal is two double hits (melee and magic) with the second being AoE to top it off. That Shaula is great should not require discussion.

You are placing Homan and Dubhe on the same level as Marfik and Algol in terms of damage potential? Marfik and Algol can attain high damage output in pretty much most ways, without really needing too much thought, while for Homan to be really powerful you need to have constant WP generation and really that's a territory best handled by Hierarchs. As for Dubhe, I only ever see FR berserkers even use Dubhe because of its curse.

You are seriously downplaying the self-bane on Sirius way too much, even if Veil of Ash has been nerfed to make it less valuable than it once was, the sheer base damage alone is already a very enticing reason to use it in magic cpb gears, outside of multi-hits and damage-dealing charms that provide ongoing or +to next. It is much faster and much more reliable single turn damage than Homan and Dubhe for fucking sure, so I'm not particularly sure where those came from.

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The damage is lackluster compared to the epics with a high potential, that's something I'll agree with you on, but the defensive properties more than make up for it, really. I'd consider it the "FotE of the forge charms", it does several things, and all of them pretty well.

I disagree. It can't be called the "FotE of the forge charms" if it does jack all against spirit. I will concede that it has some good defensive applications and as a Mace charm it is incredibly amazing (because there really aren't that many good Mace charms to begin with...) but honestly, it seems to me like epic-spam bait just because it's there. Immunity was never a huge deal outside of Maul of the Indefatigable's ridiculous Spirit immunity (because fuck Spirit, it is the worst strategy to resort to ever and I tire of seeing everybody run it) despite how strong it is on paper. 62 cumulative ward is nice, but it doesn't really DO much to stop those who run quick cpb or generate more +to next than you can run ward, unless for some reason you're stacking defenses on your end, which if you're running Thabit, I would say - you AREN'T.
« Last Edit: 16:54:47 - 12/10/12 by Astrolabia »
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Toben

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #16 on: 04:33:04 - 12/11/12 »
62 cumulative ward is nice

The ward on Weight of Thabit is, as it turns out, not even cumulative. Yep, that's right, Weight of Thabit is actually worse than you think.  ;)

As for Sirius; no, it's not Kiss of Lesath or Storm of Alcyone with high base damage *and* awesome effects. But it sure does have high damage for a single charm, and tbh that counts for a lot. A lot more than immunity, which stands to this day as the single most-overrated effect in the game, based on the way charms with Immunity tend to be balanced. (Maul being the exception to the rule, actually a decently-balanced immunity charm.)

I'll agree with Medefe about Weight of Thabit being the Fury of the Elements of level 50 charms though - like FotE, it's overpriced for what it does, mostly obsolete by the time you actually can afford a full playset, but pretty darn amazing right at level 45. :P

Astrolabia

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #17 on: 08:11:14 - 12/11/12 »
FotE > Thabit because it's got cumulative willpower.

gg
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Medefe

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #18 on: 09:14:25 - 12/11/12 »
You are placing Homan and Dubhe on the same level as Marfik and Algol in terms of damage potential?
No, I'm not. I'm comparing their damage potential to that of Sirius.

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You are seriously downplaying the self-bane on Sirius way too much, even if Veil of Ash has been nerfed to make it less valuable than it once was, the sheer base damage alone is already a very enticing reason to use it in magic cpb gears, outside of multi-hits and damage-dealing charms that provide ongoing or +to next. It is much faster and much more reliable single turn damage than Homan and Dubhe for fucking sure, so I'm not particularly sure where those came from.
You keep bringing up VoA, if it weren't for that charm the bane on Sirius would do nothing. You take 6 damage and deal 6 damage more. Whoop-de-doo. As it is it's only any use in GvG and 3v3 colis. And yes, VoA badly needed to be nerfed.

Quazee

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #19 on: 09:20:30 - 12/11/12 »
Thabit can completely stop a melee burst deck, it's a little less effective against melee cpb, but even there immunity is simply great. The ward provides some defense against magic. The damage is lackluster compared to the epics with a high potential, that's something I'll agree with you on, but the defensive properties more than make up for it, really. I'd consider it the "FotE of the forge charms", it does several things, and all of them pretty well.

I'll agree with Medefe about Weight of Thabit being the Fury of the Elements of level 50 charms though - like FotE, it's overpriced for what it does, mostly obsolete by the time you actually can afford a full playset, but pretty darn amazing right at level 45. :P

FotE > Thabit because it's got cumulative willpower.

gg

FotE, unlike Thabit, doesn't have attribute requirements. Thabit, unlike FotE, lacks versatility - it goes into generic melee decks (and some niche decks, based on IFM/SMF or SF) or into "spam them epics" 51+ decks. FotE is rather broken at level 44, being used in virtually any deck on the table - from the usual melee/magic to spirit/banes/summons.

Comparing, apples-to-apples, any level 50 epic to FotE is a pointless exercise.

Astrolabia

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #20 on: 14:16:32 - 12/11/12 »
No, I'm not. I'm comparing their damage potential to that of Sirius.

You keep bringing up VoA, if it weren't for that charm the bane on Sirius would do nothing. You take 6 damage and deal 6 damage more. Whoop-de-doo.

http://wl.attrib.org/estiah/replay/4ccaa3dd veil of ash STRONK

also

are you seriously telling me that two charms that require specific setups to do high damage has "better damage potential" than a charm that pretty much fits into any goddamn magic cpb gear ever? In fact Wrath of Dubhe I'm pretty sure ONLY works OPTIMALLY for self-bane/curse setups and using Homan MANDATES you stack willpower because you need to consume 5 willpower to attain the full damage output on it. To be more clear about this, i am pretty sure much less effort is needed to make Sirius do more damage at some certain point in a fight versus Homan and Dubhe.

I have seen more players run Embrace of Sirius than I have seen players run Homan and Dubhe COMBINED, to note.

man, don't look at me like I'm the one telling the joke roflmao
« Last Edit: 14:24:00 - 12/11/12 by Astrolabia »
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Medefe

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #21 on: 00:07:39 - 12/12/12 »
are you seriously telling me that two charms that require specific setups to do high damage has "better damage potential" than a charm that pretty much fits into any goddamn magic cpb gear ever?
That's what "potential" means.

Astrolabia

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #22 on: 02:41:49 - 12/12/12 »
That's what "potential" means.

i'll believe you when Dubhe and Homan usage spikes to Algol levels of usage

(read: never)
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Misha

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #23 on: 08:27:20 - 12/12/12 »
No, I'm not. I'm comparing their damage potential to that of Sirius.

Wrath of Dubhe's damage potential: 62+60=122
Embrace of Sirius's damage potential: 98+36=134

Yes, Sirius does 6 magic to you as well.  But if you have ward, that means nothing unless the opponent is using magic (and even then maybe not if you are playing some non-cumul ward charms or just are out-warding them anyway).  And against spirit it doesn't matter regardless.  You can even get more damage potential out of it by using extra actions (Blood Aegis works pretty well).  In a damage potential comparison, Sirius wins out
« Last Edit: 10:06:32 - 12/12/12 by Misha »

Ravenpaw

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #24 on: 16:00:11 - 12/12/12 »
When I was around level 45 or so Paladin was a class that I didn't want to mess with. Probably because I'm a pyro and the ward comes from Paladin's Sigil is annoying, plus The Hug and Seal of the Pure. But they are vulnerable to SP because of their relatively low output.

If you want to play in a defensive way I think any class gets what it takes since it's pretty easy to get a solid defense when there are so many cumulative armor/ward/wp charms. Sure slayers and warden's purge would just make this kind of deck better, let alone that slayers have Thunder Blow. Anyway I think Paladins are not that bad after all.

As for Sirius, I think it's damage is good but the point is at level 50 you can't blow your opponents away with just a deck consisting all your highest damage charms like you did all the way up to 45. There are so many good charms giving a lot of cumulative ward(Ice Bulk, Charges. etc.) that you need a considerable amout of cpb and some double hit charms, like Tears of Matar and Frozen Dawn, which require some ward to be effective. However the self-bane from Sirius consumes your ward so you can't use them effectively.  Also, the bane boosts your opponent's Vicious Circle and Poisioner's Pride. It might be good when you just hit 50 but would soon be replaced by charms like Howl of Algol or Storm of Alcyone.

At level 50 even if you play an offensive deck it's always good to have a decent defense. It might save you by blocking the second hit from a Void Bolt or the debuff from a Body Begloom. That's another reason why Sirius is not that good.

Astrolabia

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #25 on: 03:11:24 - 12/13/12 »
no one is arguing that Sirius is at the same level as Algol and Alcyone, that's absurd because the latter two are incredibly strong and disruptive in their respective setups with Alcyone having more versatile applications than Algol

what i am arguing however is that Sirius at least has the capability to do more damage than fucking Dubhe and Homan, both of which require highly specific setups just to even get their maximum damage output.

Dubhe's curse MANDATES you leave one of your defenses at 0, so it is GUARANTEED to run into the problems you stated with defenses being equal to 0 (Void Bolt's 2nd hit, Body Begloomed's annoying as hell -8 to melee/magic cpb, etc.) while Homan's maximum damage (112 or something, with healing and ward) requires 5 willpower which, in a Spirit dominated metagame, is hardly a trivial affair.
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Ravenpaw

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #26 on: 05:19:22 - 12/13/12 »
I agree that Sirius beats Dubhe in terms of damage, but it's hard to say with Homan.

It is a conditional double-hit charm so that it's damage depends on the cpb booster very much, whether you have 1 or 5 willpower is relatively less important.

From what I see Homan is mainly used by aura teams and magic cpb users. The formers never worry about willpower while for the later ones, you always have FotE and Fervor's Flames.

Astrolabia

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #27 on: 10:46:52 - 12/13/12 »
It is a conditional double-hit charm so that it's damage depends on the cpb booster very much, whether you have 1 or 5 willpower is relatively less important.

From what I see Homan is mainly used by aura teams and magic cpb users. The formers never worry about willpower while for the later ones, you always have FotE and Fervor's Flames.

Fervor's Flames is just 2 (cumul) and is easily ripped through by Spirit gear.
Same with FotE which is 3 (cumul), and FotE is not exactly what I would call an easy-to-get charm.

And we're talking about MAXIMUM damage potential here, so it does matter. A lot.
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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #28 on: 12:39:06 - 12/13/12 »
Oh hey hello kids. I've just read this thread out of curiosity and feel ashamed as to what the Estiah community has turned into.
Hey guys, Sirius is damn awesome, live with it. There's no point arguing against a charm that's hands down and without contest an auto-include in any decent direct magic (or even magic banes) deck. I especially laughed at the mention of Dubhe, or even Homan (which is good under certain conditions, but not necessarily a must-have in any magic deck).

I'll go back to being retired, I see no point in arguing much over here since people who don't want to understand will stick to their positions, convinced of their genius and superiority and thus skewing any argument so it matches their personal perception.

Have a good day everyone nonetheless!  :D
[15:57]   <Evangeline88>   nah, Slyguy is exceptional ... he can deal with everyone easily?

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Quazee

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Re: Paladin-esque
« Reply #29 on: 14:10:20 - 12/13/12 »
Quite frankly, Homan's longstanding issue is that it requires Sapphires; Marfik/Alcyone are simply better in the grand scheme of things, and Adhara makes auras even more ridiculous in PvE (and pre-51 PvP). It's really that bad... across the ~15 level 50+ characters that I currently maintain, I don't have access to a single set of Homan. Nope, I'm not kidding. :]