Author Topic: Thanks!  (Read 11006 times)

Destructobeam

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #15 on: 06:14:53 - 02/05/09 »
Uhh yeah, spirit as second is a joke. It's pretty much near the bottom. Release karma and other charms with free willpower (release karma won't see a decline in use just because it suddenly doesn't have willpower) have basically turned decks that were once weak to spirit because they took time to start up (time WAS an ally of spirit based decks) into pretty much a 70%+win without effort. Guess the whiners got what they wanted. Melee users no longer need to balance willpower/damage with release karma, and nearly half of all the armor/ward now comes with ever increasing amounts of willpower.

Meanwhile, there's only 2-3 viable spirit charms that do something useful along with spirit damage. Inquisitors are stuck with a nerfed class that has almost zero group viability (except with other spirit users - and even then its a crapshoot at best) and progressively weaker 1v1 pvp.

The new 'spirit' charm was the latest twist in the knife - an anti-spirit spirit charm? Really? How about something that eats the 25 free willpower you get from placing 5 release karma's into a deck? Shadow whisper (which you can get at 30) is 10X more useful, and doesn't require massive amounts of money.

Kasyn

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #16 on: 06:29:56 - 02/05/09 »
Uhh yeah, spirit as second is a joke. It's pretty much near the bottom. Release karma and other charms with free willpower (release karma won't see a decline in use just because it suddenly doesn't have willpower) have basically turned decks that were once weak to spirit because they took time to start up (time WAS an ally of spirit based decks) into pretty much a 70%+win without effort. Guess the whiners got what they wanted. Melee users no longer need to balance willpower/damage with release karma, and nearly half of all the armor/ward now comes with ever increasing amounts of willpower.

Meanwhile, there's only 2-3 viable spirit charms that do something useful along with spirit damage. Inquisitors are stuck with a nerfed class that has almost zero group viability (except with other spirit users - and even then its a crapshoot at best) and progressively weaker 1v1 pvp.

The new 'spirit' charm was the latest twist in the knife - an anti-spirit spirit charm? Really? How about something that eats the 25 free willpower you get from placing 5 release karma's into a deck? Shadow whisper (which you can get at 30) is 10X more useful, and doesn't require massive amounts of money.

Yep, that pretty much covered it.  The problem that lead to this is exactly what I'm trying to prevent with summons, it's the same misconception that the game should be balanced based on player performance and impressions.  Not everyone is interested in PvP, and some people are more interested in it than others.  If a few good players did really well as a mediocre class, does that mean the class is good?  No, it just means those players are doing well with what they have.  The big caveat is that often hyper-successful players ARE indicitive of balance issues, but it's not even close to a necessary truth.

Anyhow, I know I've hijacked the topic (to be fair I didn't start it) but I just find it frustrating that shortsighted balance attempts for the sake of quelling the mob effectively killed a whole strategy, and basically an entire class.
<slalderma> birlimpir whispers in your nightmares
<Tobliz> birlimpir was old when the world was young

Nipal

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #17 on: 11:07:05 - 02/05/09 »
summoners can do everything but are good at none. zerker's hack&slash style definitely ownz.

Kasyn

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #18 on: 15:50:54 - 02/05/09 »
summoners can do everything but are good at none. zerker's hack&slash style definitely ownz.

I disagree about Summoners, if I had the Con to use some of the awesome Earth magic stuff that's out there right now, I could be pretty competitive with that.  Bewilderment, Forbidden Vitamin, Earthfury, Rockslide (which would be INSANE with dual ongoing boost) and a few of the strongest summons would be an extremely effective deck.  It's a pretty versatile class but I think a lot of people really underestimate it.
« Last Edit: 16:01:42 - 02/05/09 by Kasyn »
<slalderma> birlimpir whispers in your nightmares
<Tobliz> birlimpir was old when the world was young

Ugluk

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #19 on: 16:56:33 - 02/05/09 »
OK, this is the second "spirit has been weakened too much" post I've seen today.  Please explain why spirit is no longer a viable strategy in group PvP.

Just because more people run WP doesn't make it impossible to win with spirit, it just makes it take longer.  There are a lot of WP reduction charms out there (voodoo head, Nightmare, etc.).  You may need to alter your strategy from "burst spirit" to "tank spirit", but it's doable.  There are plenty of ongoing debuffs, cumulative armor/ward, and healing that are available to people that want to take the long view of spirit.  It will also likely require a lot of focus. (Which goes back to another thread by Warassassin that would make cumulative focus a part of the game)  I think the value of incorporating Deathknights to support the Inquisitors is also going to go up.  I've always seen Inquisitors as the "Berserker of Spirit" and the Deathknight as the "Champion of Spirit".  Basically, that the Inquisitor does more raw Spirit damage, but the DK can destroy the protection before dealing slightly less raw damage.

If those methods are employed, and winning is still unbalanced, a high-level spirit/shifting defense charm could be introduced  to help negate the effect Erythic Flames and Release Karma are having.......ugh, why do I do this to my own class?  I highly doubt something like that is required though.  Just get creative.

Bedtime

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #20 on: 17:20:51 - 02/05/09 »
If you look at 1v1's atm around lvl42, all I see is 90% berserkers/pyro's winning, if you call that fair, I have no idea where you're coming from. I've completely given up on 1v1 and I doubt unless something happens, that i'll go back.

In 2v2's, the spirit team I am in use to win alot but lately, all you need is 2 average berserkers to beat us everytime. Spirit users have so few spirit charms post 40 to pad out a 50+ deck. There is no PvP charm (with nightmare being almost useless if you're facing a non-berserker team). DK's get 2 spirit charms, 1 which is useless in anything less than 4v4 and another what is a 3 spirit charm with a small heal and theres been 4 spirit charms since lvl 30. Post lvl 40, there's dark heirloom that is good but there are no 4 or more spirit charms, they'll just add small fairly pointless side effects (eg. a 2 spirit charm healing 50 damage is ok, but when the base attack of a berserker is 70 with 3 cumulative willpower, its useless).  I don't enter 3v3's but im guessing it will be much of the same.

I think the problem with players not going summoner is that there is no lvl3/4 summoning pre-40, so players just stop using them as soon as they get lvl2. I think some of the summon charms post lvl40 are great, but by then its too late.

Destructobeam

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #21 on: 17:58:50 - 02/05/09 »
Just because more people run WP doesn't make it impossible to win with spirit, it just makes it take longer.  There are a lot of WP reduction charms out there (voodoo head, Nightmare, etc.).  You may need to alter your strategy from "burst spirit" to "tank spirit", but it's doable. 

Burst spirit? Even before the nerf patches, any deck that ran pure spirit would get run over in a short while. The best spirit users I've come across are all variations of the 'tank spirit' - the trick to a good spirit deck was managing the right amount of spirit cards with enough cards to keep you alive. Now its just seeing if you're lucky enough to meet up with spirit users, pure summoners (all 1 of them) or pyros with not enough charms.

As for you balance question - I'm sure you wouldn't mind it if release karma came with the equivalent ward instead of willpower right? I mean, that's only around 120 or so free ward for a charm that nearly EVERY MELEE user will use regardless. Group fights, 1v1, 2v2 - you'll be seeing it all day every day. Maybe I don't know much about Pyromaniacs, mine still needs work, but coping with that would be difficult. That's what inquisitors and deathknights that use spirit have to do in 1v1, 2v2, etc... and they don't have an 'ignite' equivalent. Good luck making a 'tank pyro deck' that doesn't get its teeth kicked in by penetration and death sentence.

Inquisitors and death knights are at a disadvantage against berserkers - they're practically built to fight spirit users - but having spirit be at a disadvantage to an ENTIRE SUBSET of classes that use melee as primary damage is another thing entirely.

Nyoko

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #22 on: 18:18:18 - 02/05/09 »
How does Kasyn turn every thread into a class controversy?

Ps. this thread is for paying thanks for a class forum

Kasyn

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #23 on: 18:19:57 - 02/05/09 »
OK, this is the second "spirit has been weakened too much" post I've seen today.  Please explain why spirit is no longer a viable strategy in group PvP.

Just because more people run WP doesn't make it impossible to win with spirit, it just makes it take longer.  There are a lot of WP reduction charms out there (voodoo head, Nightmare, etc.).  You may need to alter your strategy from "burst spirit" to "tank spirit", but it's doable.  There are plenty of ongoing debuffs, cumulative armor/ward, and healing that are available to people that want to take the long view of spirit.  It will also likely require a lot of focus. (Which goes back to another thread by Warassassin that would make cumulative focus a part of the game)  I think the value of incorporating Deathknights to support the Inquisitors is also going to go up.  I've always seen Inquisitors as the "Berserker of Spirit" and the Deathknight as the "Champion of Spirit".  Basically, that the Inquisitor does more raw Spirit damage, but the DK can destroy the protection before dealing slightly less raw damage.

If those methods are employed, and winning is still unbalanced, a high-level spirit/shifting defense charm could be introduced  to help negate the effect Erythic Flames and Release Karma are having.......ugh, why do I do this to my own class?  I highly doubt something like that is required though.  Just get creative.

Maybe we should move the topic or something seeing as it's now an entirely different discussion, but it isn't exactly a flamewar so I think it's still potentially productive.

Anyhow, spirit is inert right now because of a few reasons.  With melee, Release Karma has singlehandedly broken the decision players had to make between absolute maximum damage and the safety against spirit users that some willpower and lowered damage would earn you.  The charm combines the best non-class melee buff in the game with enough willpower to fend off two spirit attacks - this completely trivializes the strategic decision that people had to struggle with (and is often the reason so many people hated spirit decks, they were reluctant to water down their super offense just to fend off spirit damage.).  This also helped keep pure damage in check a little bit, instead of being really really good it's now undeniably number one.  The ideal willpower charms should be a tradeoff between damage and willpower - the strongest melee buff in Estiah is far from this.  

Magic has slowly overtaken spirit because of things like Energy Wave, Erythic Flames, and Backdraft Flame - burst magic has scaled up, spirit damage has not.  The last good spirit damage charm that has been added was Soul Harvest, and in that time damage has received so much more because giving good charms to spirit damage has been such a touchy thing since Dark Heirloom.  (Which, IMO to remove the ongoing effect AND make it have to trigger a spirit attack before it takes effect completely neutered the core charm that would have made spirit damage competitive at this point in time.)

'Tank spirit' has always been an option but because pure damage and focus is just so much more effective compared to the awfully inadequate Mind Spike (Woeful's Inquisition is good for the focus but as a core method of focus a combo is a horrible thing to rely on) and the nothing else spirit users have to rely on for focus.  Psychic Cry + Dark Heirloom was a potential balance for group spirit damage to, but because of the way DH works now (the one turn to trigger it would be four wasted turns of getting bursted down, which is probably going to be nearly half your HP) that no longer is viable.  Even if a good spirit focus were added to the game, it's far too little too late.

This is mostly why I don't want an Inquisitor spirit charm for the next one - it would be a dreadful waste no matter how good the charm was because there are just so many other factors that have lead to it being a strategy that is more or less dead in the water.  

Anyhow, as someone with T3 characters on all sides of this debate (burst magic, ongoing melee, tank, spirit damage) I think I'm pretty fit to judge these things.

(Maybe we should make another topic for general discussion of this?)

Nyoko - I didn't really start this, it went from a tangent on Summoners to a comment that I replied to that Goth made.  And like I said, this hasn't turned into a flamewar and I think discussion of game balance is generally pretty productive especially when so many insightful players participate.
« Last Edit: 18:22:57 - 02/05/09 by Kasyn »
<slalderma> birlimpir whispers in your nightmares
<Tobliz> birlimpir was old when the world was young

Mef1729

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #24 on: 18:23:02 - 02/05/09 »
Interestingly enough, Dark Heirloom is the only buff that doesn't get its effects reduced when used on a multi-target charm.
It would be nice to see a squad built around that
...
okay, it would NOT be nice to see a squad built around that. Still...  :laugh:

Kasyn

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #25 on: 18:29:00 - 02/05/09 »
Interestingly enough, Dark Heirloom is the only buff that doesn't get its effects reduced when used on a multi-target charm.
It would be nice to see a squad built around that
...
okay, it would NOT be nice to see a squad built around that. Still...  :laugh:

Buffed up spirit damage is a unique thing, considering it's basically non-existent except for DH.  We wanted to get a squad built around it after the charm came out but it was hit with the nerf-stick and I already clearly explained exactly why this killed spirit as potentialy effective in groups.
<slalderma> birlimpir whispers in your nightmares
<Tobliz> birlimpir was old when the world was young

Kasyn

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #26 on: 18:29:44 - 02/05/09 »
Guys - I'm making a topic for this in game discussion so we can moderate ourselves a little bit here, just continue in there as if you were replying to posts here, if you want. 
<slalderma> birlimpir whispers in your nightmares
<Tobliz> birlimpir was old when the world was young