Author Topic: [PvE] Self-cleanse versus self-normalize  (Read 2847 times)

Quazee

  • Faithful
  • **
  • Posts: 218
[PvE] Self-cleanse versus self-normalize
« on: 15:15:17 - 03/30/12 »
Is there a good reason for having self-cleanse (SC) effects in low(er) level encounters ? The way I see it, self-normalize (SN) would be equally effective, but it wouldn't butcher any and all banes.

Potential issues :
  • Stacking of banes (/extenders). Bluntly put, SN wouldn't work in multiplayer encounters specifically designed to be tackled without using banes. Unearthed Horrors is a good example.
  • EA-spamming targets, such as Violette. Obviously banes are not supposed to be feasible in such circumstances.
  • [For each bane and curse on target] conditionals. They appear at level 42, but Poison Igniter is fairly weak in solo encounters (and 1v1). Side Effect and (especially) Black Death can be more problematic, at 43 and 45 (respectively). Particularly problematic when a certain target spams attach-to-self banes/curses.
  • Parasitic interactions with damage modifiers. If a certain target uses modifiers, SN (instead of SC) would actually be detrimental in some cases. Example : target has +4 as buffs and -2 as debuffs; a SC doesn't do anything (net : +2), but a SN resets the net to 0. It becomes a complete non-issue using [If X/Y modifier(s) are negative] conditionals.
  • Bane-based debuffs. Not available to PCs until level 42 (the good ones, that is; Intimidate is an outlier). Again, a non-issue if using suitable conditionals.
  • Blood Drake Curse/Premonition stunts. An "ugly" combo, but it does have its limitations : it requires a relatively high level, and it's fairly ineffective if/when there are multiple targets (basically killing BDC/Premo short decks).

Good candidates for a SC->SN conversion :
  • Great Wolf Spirit in Icecloud Ruins and Wyvern Nest.
  • Fathom Lord in Fireflies Swamp; Swamp Hydra in Fireflies Pond.
  • Great Bear in Frost Fortress. A SN would need the aforementioned extra conditional.
  • Grinning Illusion in Narkel's Private Collection and Catacombs of Kemol.
  • Starving Buzzard in A Cure (and Burnt-Down Tree). AC F1 is ridiculously easy even at the minimum entry level, killing off banes is unnecessary; SN would deny group debuffs just fine.
  • Skeletal Warden in King of No Man. A SN would need the aforementioned extra conditional.
  • Jade Golem in Hatred. A SN would need the aforementioned extra conditional.

Minor adjustments, agreed. Potentially not worth the hassle, also agreed. At very least, it should be a thing to keep in mind when designing future encounters.

Shalq

  • Faithful
  • **
  • Posts: 294
Re: [PvE] Self-cleanse versus self-normalize
« Reply #1 on: 18:03:36 - 03/30/12 »
I don't see a logical reason for changing cleanse to self-normalize in ANY pve event/dungeon. Do you realise that devs and dungeon creators put cleanse instead of SN on purpose? This is not just a "quicker" or "simplier" method of countering cpb debuffs, and SN doesn't work well with cpb (or +next) buffs, as you already noticed. Another thing is that banes are too strong against some targets and then it has nothing to do with damage modifiers. I don't understand why you'd want to banesbanesbanes everything, there are so many other ways to kill problematic stuff...


At very least, it should be a thing to keep in mind when designing future encounters.
I was going to ask why etc., but then I searched for your character in game.
An inquisitor complaining and emphasizing that everything should be bane-able. Damn, I feel deeply trolled.

Quazee

  • Faithful
  • **
  • Posts: 218
Re: [PvE] Self-cleanse versus self-normalize
« Reply #2 on: 19:26:48 - 03/30/12 »
I don't see a logical reason for changing cleanse to self-normalize in ANY pve event/dungeon. (...) I don't understand why you'd want to banesbanesbanes everything (...)

1. "ANY" and "everything" are both exaggerations.
2. I'd like to see banes being viable in (roughly) as many PvE scenarios as those where summons are viable. That's not the case, currently. And it just seems to be hardly justified.
EDIT : To single out summons isn't really fair. Auras/banes/summons, debuff decks, focus/protect/focus breakers, rune-based stunts; hell, virtually anything that isn't "AxeAxeAxe" or "kill it with fire" or "armor/ward the fuck out of it". Especially before level 40, a lot of the encounters are way too simplistic.
3. Do explain how banes would be the OMFG-grand-strategy-of-doom in FfS F4, at its intended level. Really. I'd love to see how you will pull that off.


PS. I currently maintain three characters, ranging from 47 to 50. My "main", so to speak, is an Adventurer. It's probably fair to say that you've trolled yourself.
« Last Edit: 21:36:14 - 03/30/12 by Quazee »

Slalderma

  • Veteran
  • Bunny Cultist
  • ***
  • Posts: 3048
  • the Troubadour Warrior
Re: [PvE] Self-cleanse versus self-normalize
« Reply #3 on: 01:15:30 - 03/31/12 »
This thread has potential.
slalderma / slickal / rebelscum / sukelywalker / badmotivator
berzerker / pyro / hierarch / deathknight / warden
Slyguy: Shortdeck is the answer to everything.

Passionario

  • Bunny Cultist
  • **
  • Posts: 313
Re: [PvE] Self-cleanse versus self-normalize
« Reply #4 on: 14:49:31 - 04/05/12 »
And while we're at it, I would like to suggest giving infinite Spirit PvE monsters below level 40 gears with a finite number of charms. Said number could be set sufficiently high to ensure that the optimal way of doing the fight (at the proper level) is still via damage, while giving higher-level characters an option to "do it wrong".

For example, the purpose of Rat God is to demonstrate new players the concept of exhaustion and the importance of adding new charms to one's gear. If Rat God had a 30-charm deck, it would work just as well. Or, for another example, take Shadowlord Drisp from Village of Cyneth, who teaches players about Strike combos and the importance of burst. Surely his delayed aura would make him just as deadly if he had 66 charms to work with instead of infinity?

True infinite Spirit opponents that can't be killed by spirit and turtling should be introduced approximately at the same time as ones that have multiple thousands of HP and aren't supposed to be killed by conventional damage - that is, past level 40.



This world is a mess, and I just need to rule it.