Author Topic: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"  (Read 12462 times)

Lessigfan

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My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« on: 20:21:20 - 10/17/11 »
Anyone else think Null Barbs are too strong? I get that auras are too easy to run, too hard to counter, and very powerful - I'm an Inq after all (full disclosure, I've been running a pretty lame aura deck in this months shuffle). But Null Barbs are so good, they're more than an aura counter, they're a strategy on their own.  

A few coli teams/players have been very clever with Null Barbs - adding auras to enemies and wiping enemies out with Null Barbs (the other damage is reasonable), or 1v1 shortdecking the strategy.  With the shifting/piercing damage, the permanent duration with cascade effect, I think they're too much.  

Personally, I think null barbs should be a bane OR maybe ~12 magic/aura with 0% P. Under both scenarios they'd still be a great aura counter, but less of a strategy in their own right.  Alternately, make auras easier to shed (slayers purge, empathic gear, energy burst... that's it?).  

EDIT: I don't mean this as sour grapes - anyone running Null Barbs strategies are clever and doing exactly what I'd do if I was sufficiently outfitted.  There are several other fairly recent charms I suspect are too strong (gravity spear, running bomb), but I'm not sure yet.  Null Barbs just seem like an obvious case.  

Thoughts?  Disagreements? Good Null Barbs counters? 
« Last Edit: 20:23:16 - 10/17/11 by Lessigfan »

Gothmogged

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #1 on: 21:04:59 - 10/17/11 »
As a serious Null Barbs abuser, I think the base thesis that they're too strong may have some merit.

However, making them a bane is not a fix, it would utterly destroy their PvP usability.   They are exactly right as an attach aura to hoist aura users by their own petard.   If they were a bane they would be impotent against the commonplace appeasing balm/elixir decks.

It should be noted that Null Barbs teams don't have ideal conditions against aura teams as it is.  They can very easily get outraced by a shokiaidonk team.  Cascade effect will often extend WDC+Kiai to the detriment of the Barbs team.

The amount of damage per aura could come down a little bit.  A slower NB may be all we need to even things out.
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Shalq

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #2 on: 22:29:56 - 10/17/11 »
I've seen it in 1v1 & 3v3 and I must say that it's completely overpowered atm, especially when mixed with running bomb. The damage per aura is so high that you can ~20-charm literally every non-spirit deck in 1v1. In 3v3 you'll need to use more charms, but then you're able to easily pwn spirit as well.
I'd say it's much better than GS (though, imho, they shouldn't be compared... now it's a whole different story) because the only "working" [or rather "worth playing also against other strategies"] counter = empathic stuff. Yet even 2x set of empathics won't help you at all in a long deck... especially if you're assisting the extender from cascade effect by playing EAs. I doubt that anyone is willing to go with mass empathics and dump their cpb and/or raw dmg to nothingness just to deal with one imbalanced charm. And shortdecking with empathics?... meh -.-  So yeah, I agree that NB should be only an useful aura counter, not the whole strategy.


There are so many useful extenders, and shortkiai strategies can stack so many auras in a blink of time, that NB doesn't need duration of 4 turns - in 3v3 it'll be extended no matter what (well, almost. but still...). So since it's intended to counter mass auras, then maybe aura-based hit would be better than some crap dmg with imbalanced over-time effect that almost instakills even decks containing 0 auras.
NB now:
  12 Shifting damage (25% P)
  Aura: Attach to target: 14 Shifting damage for each aura, during 4 turns
My suggestion:
  Aura: Attach to target: 10-11 Shifting damage for each aura, during 2 turns
 [For each aura on target]
   7-8 Shifting damage (25% P)
"OOOmagawd 2 turns is nothing" = again, NB SHOULD be just an anti-aura charm, not a whole uncounterable strategy.
« Last Edit: 22:36:28 - 10/17/11 by Shalq »

Misha

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #3 on: 00:09:28 - 10/18/11 »
Been running Null Barbs decks for awhile and definitely agree it is too powerful.

Honestly I think the suggestions of 10 or 12 damage are still too high.  Poisoner's Pride is only 8 (not shifting either!), Dabih is only 4 (no piercing! also an epic!).  Poisoner's Pride also isn't extendible (though it extends banes as a benefit).

I'd say 8 for 4 turns is more than enough.  10-11 for 2 turns like Shalq suggested is probably okay too.

Do agree that it should not be a bane.

Gabbin

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #4 on: 00:29:36 - 10/18/11 »
Could always use EAs and Hypnotic Pendulums to not trigger your auras and protect yourself from banes.  Throw in Energy Bursts for some big hits.  It'd be like a reverse Tygann!

We were slightly concerned that the damage might be too high, it possibly could stand to come down a little bit.

That said, I was/am thrilled to see attached auras as a strat.  The first couple of replays I saw was "holy crap thats amazing!".  I'd be very hesitant to nerf it out of existence.  How long has it been since we've seen something new?
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Chaofan

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #5 on: 00:35:13 - 10/18/11 »
I agree it is overpowered, but my suggestion for it would be to send the damage back to 8 per aura, keep the piercing, and probably lower it's turns to 3 (2 would probably be to hard a nerf).

Attached auras as a strat is shitty and you know it. I agree i was astonished when i first saw it, but it feels like the unearthed horrors-last stand effect, more an exploit than a reasonable strategy. Mostly, because there are no counters; the only remotely sensible way to remove auras from oneself is by playing empathic, and it would be too much to build your whole deck just for one single strategy.

Yogurt

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #6 on: 01:56:34 - 10/18/11 »
My solution (after watching some replays):

[Null Barbs]
12 Melee
12 Magic
Aura: Attach to target: 8 Melee or Magic and an extra 6 Melee or Magic for each aura, during 4 turns

Runes: Earth, Fist
Modulation Crystal takes effect, Sourmilk's armor raises to 148
Sourmilk's melee attacks are increased by up to 2940
Sourmilk's magic attacks are increased by up to 2940
The Modulation Crystal loses its glow

Shalq

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #7 on: 02:19:00 - 10/18/11 »
Could always use EAs and Hypnotic Pendulums to not trigger your auras and protect yourself from banes.  Throw in Energy Bursts for some big hits.  It'd be like a reverse Tygann!
I don't understand how you can protect yourself from triggering NB by playing EAs and pendulums... Not everyone does shortkiai in 3v3. NB pwns every strategy with almost no problems, be it 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3. Dodging NB hits in 1v1 is impossible, unless you make a deck full of EAs. Also delayed auras won't work, even though you can reach dizziness fairly often (but not all the time), because well... it's based on auras, so two or three NB triggers and you're dead.
Energy Burst? Sorry but I really hate being forced to put some low-lvl charms into every pvp gear, which in 90% fights are totally dead draws, just to have a chance to counter one exact shortdeck.

It's always good to see some new mechanics (attach) or reviving of old ones (self stun), but the lack of anti-'s kills the fun.

Lessigfan

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #8 on: 02:45:12 - 10/18/11 »
After thinking about it, I think Shalq/Chaofan have come up with the best fix.  Reducing the damage & duration would still make it deadly against aura users, but much harder to use against everyone else.  

I'd also like to see more ways to consume/wipe-out auras on yourself.  

EDIT: I'd also like to say how refreshing it is to see users of the strategy being so reasonable about it.  On the last online game I played, users of OP strategies would argue to the last that the strategies were OK.  I'm really impressed with the players here.  I feel pretty new here, so I figured I very much may be wrong, but it looks like most players feel the same way.  
« Last Edit: 02:51:31 - 10/18/11 by Lessigfan »

Gabbin

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #9 on: 03:23:12 - 10/18/11 »
Attached auras as a strat is shitty and you know it. I agree i was astonished when i first saw it, but it feels like the unearthed horrors-last stand effect, more an exploit than a reasonable strategy. Mostly, because there are no counters; the only remotely sensible way to remove auras from oneself is by playing empathic, and it would be too much to build your whole deck just for one single strategy.

That feels a lot like the many discussions on Spirit over the past three years.
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Slalderma

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #10 on: 03:32:32 - 10/18/11 »
Attached auras as a strat is shitty and you know it. I agree i was astonished when i first saw it, but it feels like the unearthed horrors-last stand effect, more an exploit than a reasonable strategy. Mostly, because there are no counters; the only remotely sensible way to remove auras from oneself is by playing empathic, and it would be too much to build your whole deck just for one single strategy.

That feels a lot like the many discussions on Spirit over the past three years.

That feels a lot like the many discussions on _________ over the past three years.

Choices include:

spirit
eas
banes
melee cpb
magic cpb
gravity spear
forcefield
auras
pure vita earrings
slalderma / slickal / rebelscum / sukelywalker / badmotivator
berzerker / pyro / hierarch / deathknight / warden
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Arimith

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #11 on: 03:48:56 - 10/18/11 »
I agree that at the moment it looks a bit overpowered... but we don't want to go and FORCEFAILED it when it is really one of the best designed (imho) anti-aura charms to come along in a long time.  Give people some time to adapt their decks to it.  At the moment I think it would be best to, at most, reduce it to 10-12 damage instead of 14 and leave the rest the same.  It's a level 50 charm which is somewhat difficult to collect, it *should* be powerful.
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Merton

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #12 on: 04:35:41 - 10/18/11 »
SO MUCH DETERMINATION.  I never seen this before in Estiah, doe.

Null Barbs putting da team on its back, yo.

---

Realpost: I think it's a very clever charm that should be tweaked to reduce its speed, not nerfed to the ground nor removing the attach aura strategy, which is perfectly acceptable imo.  People say there's not enough counters to it, but well, nothing is stopping that from changing.  I see no problem with a new and improved serious of self-aura killers for lvl 50.  So people may have to deal with getting pounded by NB decks for awhile, no different than all those strats Slald mentioned up above.

Tweak the charm a bit, see how it rolls.  Nothing drastic just yet.
« Last Edit: 05:52:41 - 10/18/11 by Merton »

Sparky

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #13 on: 05:43:51 - 10/18/11 »
I must admit, even though it allows me to run Flashwind successfully for once, I agree it needs a nerf.

I'd root for the tweaks suggested, lower it down to 8-10 damage/turn and maybe for only 3 turns instead of 4... but let's not forget to add more charms supporting such strats in upcoming patches (hopefully I'll have a dungeon in there, or in the next one, or in the one after the... you got it), along with some more charms removing/lowering auras on yourself. So it becomes more interesting and to create more ways to build around it (and not just the usual "spam the auto-include charms related to said strat and win with it".

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Toben

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Re: My Null Barbs are Called "Strategy"
« Reply #14 on: 05:47:27 - 10/18/11 »
That feels a lot like the many discussions on _________ over the past three years.

Going to have to disagree here. To me, it feels exactly like one particular discussion - the bitching and moaning about the decks people were running with the (original recipe*) Curse of Flesh + Power Corruption when Curse of Flesh first came out. (The original, un-nerfed CoF did damage equal to magic cpb + melee cpb, not just the higher of the two, for those of you who are too new or too senile to remember. ;) At the time, 18 dpt made it easily the best bane in the game even if you'd only played one Power Corruption.)

Everyone agreed that Curse of Flesh should stay awesome, and would be a great charm for Inqs to have. And it did, and it is. But people (reasonably) felt that it shouldn't be a strategy on its own, where coupled with another charm it was capable of wiping out people who weren't even running cpb. Feels pretty much exactly analagous to this; auras need a punisher just like CPB did, but that doesn't mean it should be so strong you can make an overpowered short deck with it and a couple other charms that easily beats strategies running zero auras, just like CoF shouldn't be an auto-win vs. decks running zero CPB.

So yeah, put me in the nerf camp. Personally, I really don't think that piling up auras on your opponent and then playing Null Barbs should be better than piling up banes on your opponent and playing Poisoner's Pride, considering there are a lot more counters to banes than just the Empathics.



*not gonna lie, I always hoped that the "epic" Curse of Flesh would be the original recipe version, was a little disappointed to see on the contest server it's just one extra turn duration
« Last Edit: 05:49:18 - 10/18/11 by Toben »