Author Topic: Game impressions  (Read 11916 times)

Srdja

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #15 on: 11:39:36 - 08/23/11 »
I also agree, but I think our problem is mostly about the limited charm selection at the moment.

Sheira

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #16 on: 11:54:58 - 08/23/11 »
Okay so I think it's time for me to also throw out my thoughts about the battle system.

First of all: Really impressive, the source charms, the rune pool, the charm breaking, the linking, all done very well and working well together. And yes currently single rune decks are way easier. But I think this is mostly due to a limited charm selection. Some more charms with meta runes would be nice here. Making a gear with all 6 magic runes could work easily if there are enough good charms requiring blue runes. Currently multi-rune decks require a lot more work to be good, playing and breaking charms at the right moment to get the links going. When, as promised, the more complex links get better effects, this could already be enough.
Another interesting concept is that you basically only play half of your deck due to rune limitations but can decide on the fly which half that will be. You can also stack your gear with charms that are solely for breaking or counter charms which will be broken most of the time, but can be devastating if meeting the right gear.

It's nice to see that the runes play such a fundamental role in the system and you really have to work with them to get the best results while still being at the mercy of the RNG with your hand.

Nipal

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #17 on: 13:48:25 - 08/23/11 »
e1's battle system really suffered because of RNG, a lot. and players didn't have the impression of "playing".
in e2 we wanted to give players more interactions, so less RNG. with a well built deck, RNG should play very
little part in e2 battle outcomes.

we'll start to add more cards as soon as most of you believe the fundamental rules of the battle system are OK.
it's a lot of work if we have to change those rules later.

Sheira

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #18 on: 14:06:04 - 08/23/11 »
Yeah, I meant that your skill plays the most important role, but there is a small RNG part so that not every fight plays the same. I think the balance between randomness and skill is quite good.

Sparky

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #19 on: 14:19:08 - 08/23/11 »
I've tried out some things I have to admit using a deck with 3 different source runes is a hell. Especially if you make it medium-to-long (more than 40 total charms) with equal repartition of each rune. I first thought that was mostly a matter of getting used to it and the speed being too fast for me to handle a deck I wasn't used to yet, but when I tried on slow speed it occured to me there just wasn't much I could do, got often stuck having to wait too long for runes or the right charm to come up (6/hand seemed too low in this case, though I don't think it'd be judicious to have bigger hands, that'd mostly make things more confusing).
Maybe broader and more varied charms selection will fix that and I'm worrying for nothing, or maybe we just need several different source charms of a same rune... I'm expecting to get the insight of other beta testers on that matter.
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Srdja

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #20 on: 14:42:31 - 08/23/11 »
This system reminds me a lot of Magic the Gathering. In it, you had 5 colors and and you just couldn't run a 3 color deck without making compromises.

For example, if you had a charm that would require 3 mace runes, that charm would require you to be extremely committed to running Maces, and you really don't want to run it in a 3 rune gear. On the other hand, if you had a charm that requires 1 mace and 2 white, it would be called "splashable" since you really only need to run very few maces to make it work. The 3 mace one should be more powerful but also make you commit to Maces a lot more than the second one.

I think the charms should be structured like that. I also support having multiple source charms of the same type (running mace/twin/twin/twin/mace/fire should be possible, for example)

I would also like to suggest adding a special rune source, prismatic, that could replace any rune at all. It could act as a "color" (rune?) fixer. It should be delegated to higher level charms, but it could help smooth things over.

Slalderma

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #21 on: 15:15:43 - 08/23/11 »
I guess it all depends on how easy / common linking should be.  As it is, it's on the hard side to pull off and the effects aren't (seemingly) worth it. If the battle system makes linking easier then the link effects should be on the weak side.  Also depends on what the expected deck should look like - one rune?  2-3?  Which gets into what Srdja was saying.
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Qqchampion

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #22 on: 17:23:25 - 08/23/11 »
I really like the battle system on the whole, though I agree that right now something feels 'off' about the balance. This is probably just because we have very little resources to work with. What I'm imagining end-game balance as right now is some people running mono-rune or dual-rune gears, sacrificing versatility for pure power and better chance at link bonuses, while others build three or maybe four rune gears that let them take advantage of a greater variety of effects, but have greater difficulty linking and so have to choose when to try for the bonuses. I think it's possible to push balance in this direction if there's enough charm variety. There need to be some charms that require two or even three different specific runes that are very powerful and also some more charms that let multi-rune gears get other runes out easier, either by generating them as a charm effect or by having lots of charms with mostly macro runes. The battle system seems robust enough to handle just about anything, which is great. Game balance will only be limited by our creativity in coming up with new charms.

On the subject of linking, I'd like to see some charms where the regular effect is weak and the link bonus is powerful, especially if the runes required are hard to link. I'd also like to see (if possible) an effect that rearranges all runes in a player's rune pool at random, either to screw over opponents trying to make difficult links or to (maybe) help a player who messed up their own pool somehow. Call it Greydam's Legacy or something  ;)
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Merton

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #23 on: 19:33:12 - 08/23/11 »
Granted i'm only going off my pure fire gear, but I would call the current linking available there pretty potent.  i mean I think Gabbin and Misha can attest that they just could not keep up with my damage output in the slightest.

I don't want linking to be EASY, but I also don't want it to be such a nuisance that it becomes more like the average non Strike combo in E1....if you pull it off great, but not worth building around.

Going back to my issues with the source pool, rather than manually taking a turn to cycle your source, to be honest, I strongly feel your source pool should cycle every turn even if you play or break a charm and don't get a source rune in your pool. I know some people will be like "No!" because they're already used to the current way, but my biggest issue with the source is that if a rune is on deck that I don't want, I can ONLY stall it by playing/breaking.  I can't just avoid it.  Common response: you shouldn't have a source that gets in your way like that.  But I don't buy that.  You're still dealing with randomly drawn cards, and sometimes they just don't draw the way you want.  Source charms being set in stone will really put you at a GREATER disadvantage if you already start off a match not really having drawn the hand you want.  If your source always cycled, I think it would make on-the-fly strategizing and planning even more deep.  And if that sounds like a potentially good idea, I highly recommend implementing it soon before we DO get too used to the current way.

Sparky

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #24 on: 21:58:53 - 08/23/11 »
If your source always cycled, I think it would make on-the-fly strategizing and planning even more deep.  And if that sounds like a potentially good idea, I highly recommend implementing it soon before we DO get too used to the current way.
Sounds like a decent idea to me, though I'd first like to see how faster cycling (lower delay on source runes) will do, it might be enough to help at this stage.
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Slalderma

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #25 on: 23:29:15 - 08/23/11 »
But source runes break link combos :(

Another suggestion - what if, once per turn you could break a charm in addition to whatever normal action you already have (play charm, break charm, play source rune)?  That is, the first break in a turn is free, the second costs your action that turn.  This would let you link easier, possibly play more charms, but leaves you wide open to spirit since you're churning through your deck just to play stuff.
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Misha

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #26 on: 23:56:17 - 08/23/11 »
But source runes break link combos :(

Another suggestion - what if, once per turn you could break a charm in addition to whatever normal action you already have (play charm, break charm, play source rune)?  That is, the first break in a turn is free, the second costs your action that turn.  This would let you link easier, possibly play more charms, but leaves you wide open to spirit since you're churning through your deck just to play stuff.

How fast you draw stuff does not depend on your actions at all.  So even if you're breaking a lot, you're not any weaker to spirit.  You just generally have less choices in your hand to use.

Sparky

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #27 on: 00:03:41 - 08/24/11 »
Yes, you draw one charm every 15 delays, which is when you 'lose' 1 spirit, the problem with breaking is more that it does no damage+makes your hand more limited (less charms)+takes as long as if you'd played the charm.
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Slalderma

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #28 on: 00:58:40 - 08/24/11 »
Ok fine ignore the part about being vulnerable to spirit but if you could break in this way it changes from being rune limited all the time to being given a choice between being rune or draw limited. If you could gain an extra rune a turn but it costs you a charm to do it.
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Merton

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Re: Game impressions
« Reply #29 on: 01:32:57 - 08/24/11 »
I like Slald's suggestion too, but just to clarify for Slald because I think he was addressing me.

When I say I want source runes to cycle every action no matter what, I mean JUST cycle.  you'd only get the rune if you took no action.  otherwise it would just shift what was next on deck.