Author Topic: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]  (Read 32113 times)

Einar

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #30 on: 00:31:37 - 02/21/10 »
I'd kind of like to see crafts be allowed with dungeon drops.  I mean, how much can you really come up with when you're running the dungeon only once?  It would still be possible to go through the dungeon and not be able to craft anything (I think).

I'll try it out either way, but I think getting to choose (maybe) a crafted charm here and there could add a bit more flavor the challenge.

Matto

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #31 on: 00:39:19 - 02/21/10 »
Quick question about crafting...

Quote
** Crafting Exception: redeeming token drops are acceptable. However, remember that you only get one of each respective token, so choose wisely!

So am I correct in thinking this means the guaranteed drop from each dungeon can be redeemed for 1 charm, for instance Phoenix Ash can be redeemed for 1 Magma Shield, but all other crafts are forbidden?  I'm just a little unclear on that point from the main threads example.


Starwarskid

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #33 on: 01:04:54 - 02/21/10 »
Getting spiritbreaker, iron will and sacrifice is almost impossible @lower lvls due to 'no crafts'
Getting points in summoning will be even harder Oo

  • Yes summoner will be hard. It requires getting lucky on drops and having enough to be able to skill summoner. Situations like this force the player to adjust character planning on the fly, possibly switching development paths, instead of following a pre-planned optimal path.
  • Iron Will is doable with vendor willpower charms.
  • Sacrifice can be leveled by wizards easily, for everyone else it will depend on drop luck.

Virtually no spirit, summons, banes, projections unless you pick a class in T2 for it and many of the dungeons require it.
I think easiest way to solve this is outlaw buying materials.  Let people craft whatever they want from what they find in dungeons.
The restrictions are intended to play off the differences in classes. It is inevitable that certain classes will have an easier time with certain dungeons, and others may not be able to do certain ones at all. The suggestion about crafting with what is found in dungeons is a good one, but a line had to be drawn somewhere or it would be a potential slippery slope. Originally, there was to be no crafting charms at all, but this made several dungeons completely pointless (Summoning Altar). I happened to feel that allowing token crafts but not normal crafts was a good midpoint between having no crafts at all, and opening up a can of worms by allowing all crafts. I believe the difficulty difference between a normal game, and an ironman that allows all crafts and the guild showcase, would not be big enough to force players to shift away from established optimal strategies.

Is it actually mathematically possible to level heroism, only doing each dungeon once?
Probably not, but heroism is for heroes. Ironmen aren't expected to be heroes, we're all gimps!  ;)

Quote
3. The goal is to clear all dungeons and reach level 50, though not necessarily in that order, in the fastest time possible.
edit: the more and more i think about it appears to be not the race of how fast you can get to lvl50 and beat all dungeons, but how far can you get with character gimped like that. AND THATS COOL!

I think this makes sense in the light of what people have brought up about certain dungeons being impossible or at least extremely difficult under the ruleset. It may make more sense to "score" people based on a combination of max level reached, time taken, and number of dungeons cleared? Actually, I like this, going to modify the OP.

---

It is important to bear in mind that the ironman challenge requires a completely different mindset from the normal game. The normal game is designed in such a manner that every player will be able to (eventually) complete all of the game's content, independent of the character development path chosen. However, by imposing artificial restrictions on gameplay, many of the balancing aspects have been removed and new obstacles are presented. Novices are the only one with cleanse. Sage and Guard are the only ones with projection. Wizard is the only one with sacrifice. Fighter destruction will help greatly in taking down Frost Fortress' bear, but leaves little option for the end boss. This starts to matter, where it did not matter as much normally. In the normal game, class charms can be used to supplement whatever the optimal strategy is (made from a wide selection of charms). Under ironman rules, class charms may become your only strategy (supplemented by vendor charms and few dungeon drops).
« Last Edit: 01:08:28 - 02/21/10 by Starwarskid »

Sparky

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #34 on: 01:26:14 - 02/21/10 »
Is auction house allowed ? If so, the prices there are going to rocket even more  :laugh:

Strike for 150k gold !!!  ;D
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Joehai

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #35 on: 02:28:46 - 02/21/10 »
Taking a couple of notes from this challenge, I propose a "Realism Mode" challenge:

- All event dungeons can be run only once.  Especially concerning boss monsters, any creatures associated with the dungeon are going to be there once after all.
- All treasure dungeons (1-star through 5-star) are allowed to be run only once.  You can only find treasure once after all, it's not like another new treasure will magically reappear in the same spot right?
- Everything else (PVP, arena, exploration, auction) is allowed indefinitely.  Unlike dungeons and treasure sites, it's not like there's a shortage of places to gather and explore, people to beat up, etc.

Anything else I'm missing?  It would be a heck of a lot easier than this...this challenge is pretty balls-to-the-wall hard as is.
« Last Edit: 02:30:39 - 02/21/10 by Joehai »

Arimith

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #36 on: 02:42:02 - 02/21/10 »
Taking a couple of notes from this challenge, I propose a "Realism Mode" challenge:

- All event dungeons can be run only once.  Especially concerning boss monsters, any creatures associated with the dungeon are going to be there once after all.
- All treasure dungeons (1-star through 5-star) are allowed to be run only once.  You can only find treasure once after all, it's not like another new treasure will magically reappear in the same spot right?
- Everything else (PVP, arena, exploration, auction) is allowed indefinitely.  Unlike dungeons and treasure sites, it's not like there's a shortage of places to gather and explore, people to beat up, etc.

Anything else I'm missing?  It would be a heck of a lot easier than this...this challenge is pretty balls-to-the-wall hard as is.

I think this is a much better challenge, as I think it might actually be doable

One thing I haven't seen any mention of is guild crafts - yay or nay?
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Qiva

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #37 on: 03:19:13 - 02/21/10 »
Is market spiking permissible?
Would make buying the class charms a lot easier I guess, though so will the arena eh.
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Matto

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #38 on: 03:21:10 - 02/21/10 »
One thing I haven't seen any mention of is guild crafts - yay or nay?

directly copied from the rules in the other thread

Quote
2. You may not gather, pvp craft, regular craft, or utilize the guild showcase.


Starwarskid

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #39 on: 03:49:50 - 02/21/10 »
Taking a couple of notes from this challenge, I propose a "Realism Mode" challenge:

- All event dungeons can be run only once.  Especially concerning boss monsters, any creatures associated with the dungeon are going to be there once after all.
- All treasure dungeons (1-star through 5-star) are allowed to be run only once.  You can only find treasure once after all, it's not like another new treasure will magically reappear in the same spot right?
- Everything else (PVP, arena, exploration, auction) is allowed indefinitely.  Unlike dungeons and treasure sites, it's not like there's a shortage of places to gather and explore, people to beat up, etc.

Anything else I'm missing?  It would be a heck of a lot easier than this...this challenge is pretty balls-to-the-wall hard as is.

I think this is a much better challenge, as I think it might actually be doable

One thing I haven't seen any mention of is guild crafts - yay or nay?

While certainly more doable, imho, this is less exciting. I believe the resulting gameplay would be far too similar to a normal game. For instance, consider some of my current gears:

Temple of Tides Fight 3:
  • 60% crafted charms
  • 25% blue dungeon charms
  • 15% green dungeon charms.

King of No Man Fight 4:
  • 60% crafted charms
  • 16% green dungeon charms
  • 8% blue dungeon charms
  • 16% class charms.

Call of Conscience Fight 2:
  • 45% crafted charms
  • 40% blue dungeon charms
  • 15% green dungeon charms

From these (admittedly selective) examples, it is clear that crafted charms are heavily represented in dungeon decks. If I kept these 45-60% crafting charms, I pretty much have the same gear as a normal game, so what would be the point of it? It is far too small of a handicap. Under the tighter rules, I imagine people will need to field something to this:

Guesstimate of Ironman Gears:
  • 50% vendor charms
  • 30% class charms
  • 20% blue,green dungeon charms + token redemptions combined

... totally requiring new solutions.
« Last Edit: 04:01:07 - 02/21/10 by Starwarskid »

Sparky

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #40 on: 03:55:13 - 02/21/10 »
Under the tighter rules, I imagine people will need to field something on the order of 50% vendor charms, 30% class charms, 20% blue+green dungeon charms combined.... totally requiring new solutions and RNG love
Fixed

Agreed on the more challenging thing too: using crafts and all would make it less fun, besides it's also a contest about who'll make it the further after all so people aren't necessarily supposed to "win" it (or complete everything).
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Grayfaced

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #41 on: 13:36:22 - 02/21/10 »
I think the realism mode is much more interesting (except I think auction should still be barred).  Starwarskids, what you're missing is that almost all of those "crafted charms" require a dungeon drop.  While they may seem like commodities in normal games (eg flashing gusts, vibrant silks) they will be very rare in these gimp games.  Very few will even get a metal melt, eternal rebellion only drops in 3 fights, nightsteel drops in 2 fights.  I think it makes the choices more interesting in managing limited resources.

Starwarskid

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #42 on: 19:25:28 - 02/21/10 »
I think the realism mode is much more interesting (except I think auction should still be barred).  Starwarskids, what you're missing is that almost all of those "crafted charms" require a dungeon drop.  While they may seem like commodities in normal games (eg flashing gusts, vibrant silks) they will be very rare in these gimp games.  Very few will even get a metal melt, eternal rebellion only drops in 3 fights, nightsteel drops in 2 fights.  I think it makes the choices more interesting in managing limited resources.

I see what you are saying, and I had not thought of it that way. While personally, I still prefer the rules as-is, I see nothing wrong with people participating under modified rules such as the realism rules. It is still in the same spirit. After all, this is basically a collective solo challenge, so it is up to each player what is most fun. Now that the time race objective has been replaced by "do as much as you can under the circumstances", strict adherence to the rules is not as big of a deal. Perhaps it would make more sense to simply consider the posted rules as a point of reference, rather than something set in stone.

Joehai

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #43 on: 19:34:41 - 02/21/10 »
Hey, I still think the Ironman speed challenge is good hardcore fun for those looking for that sort of thing.  It's definitely worth trying to see if it actually is possible, and major props to those who can see this whole thing through, you've got balls.  I'll just sit back and watch the progress through the Ironman registry thread though, I just KNOW I'm going to ragequit after a certain point  :D

Plus, noting the class differences in one of SWK's earlier posts, it would be interesting to see some sort of notable distinction between classes in terms of what dungeons they can or can't run, and to force players to utilize their class strengths to the fullest.  It'll be fun to see to say the least.
« Last Edit: 19:47:48 - 02/21/10 by Joehai »

Merton

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Re: Ironman Speed Challenge [Discussion Thread]
« Reply #44 on: 21:05:27 - 02/21/10 »
This is pretty neat.  I might try it sometime down the line...and it should be pretty low on the time-consumption scale since no farming is allowed.

But right now 16 dudes is enough.

Feel free to place bets on how long I hold out.  5 hours probably. ;p