Author Topic: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]  (Read 39598 times)

Kasyn

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Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« on: 18:31:12 - 02/05/09 »
Yep.  Let's keep it informed and relevant so hopefully the devs can parse through our discussion and gain from it, instead of making it seem like a flamewar that would be easy for them to ignore. 
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Nastharl

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #1 on: 18:32:51 - 02/05/09 »
d00d u sux stfuhor

Kasyn

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #2 on: 18:43:23 - 02/05/09 »
I'll repost the last quoted thing in that topic so we can continue uninterrupted.

OK, this is the second "spirit has been weakened too much" post I've seen today.  Please explain why spirit is no longer a viable strategy in group PvP.

Just because more people run WP doesn't make it impossible to win with spirit, it just makes it take longer.  There are a lot of WP reduction charms out there (voodoo head, Nightmare, etc.).  You may need to alter your strategy from "burst spirit" to "tank spirit", but it's doable.  There are plenty of ongoing debuffs, cumulative armor/ward, and healing that are available to people that want to take the long view of spirit.  It will also likely require a lot of focus. (Which goes back to another thread by Warassassin that would make cumulative focus a part of the game)  I think the value of incorporating Deathknights to support the Inquisitors is also going to go up.  I've always seen Inquisitors as the "Berserker of Spirit" and the Deathknight as the "Champion of Spirit".  Basically, that the Inquisitor does more raw Spirit damage, but the DK can destroy the protection before dealing slightly less raw damage.

If those methods are employed, and winning is still unbalanced, a high-level spirit/shifting defense charm could be introduced  to help negate the effect Erythic Flames and Release Karma are having.......ugh, why do I do this to my own class?  I highly doubt something like that is required though.  Just get creative.

Maybe we should move the topic or something seeing as it's now an entirely different discussion, but it isn't exactly a flamewar so I think it's still potentially productive.

Anyhow, spirit is inert right now because of a few reasons.  With melee, Release Karma has singlehandedly broken the decision players had to make between absolute maximum damage and the safety against spirit users that some willpower and lowered damage would earn you.  The charm combines the best non-class melee buff in the game with enough willpower to fend off two spirit attacks - this completely trivializes the strategic decision that people had to struggle with (and is often the reason so many people hated spirit decks, they were reluctant to water down their super offense just to fend off spirit damage.).  This also helped keep pure damage in check a little bit, instead of being really really good it's now undeniably number one.  The ideal willpower charms should be a tradeoff between damage and willpower - the strongest melee buff in Estiah is far from this.  

Magic has slowly overtaken spirit because of things like Energy Wave, Erythic Flames, and Backdraft Flame - burst magic has scaled up, spirit damage has not.  The last good spirit damage charm that has been added was Soul Harvest, and in that time damage has received so much more because giving good charms to spirit damage has been such a touchy thing since Dark Heirloom.  (Which, IMO to remove the ongoing effect AND make it have to trigger a spirit attack before it takes effect completely neutered the core charm that would have made spirit damage competitive at this point in time.)

'Tank spirit' has always been an option but because pure damage and focus is just so much more effective compared to the awfully inadequate Mind Spike (Woeful's Inquisition is good for the focus but as a core method of focus a combo is a horrible thing to rely on) and the nothing else spirit users have to rely on for focus.  Psychic Cry + Dark Heirloom was a potential balance for group spirit damage to, but because of the way DH works now (the one turn to trigger it would be four wasted turns of getting bursted down, which is probably going to be nearly half your HP) that no longer is viable.  Even if a good spirit focus were added to the game, it's far too little too late.

This is mostly why I don't want an Inquisitor spirit charm for the next one - it would be a dreadful waste no matter how good the charm was because there are just so many other factors that have lead to it being a strategy that is more or less dead in the water.  

Anyhow, as someone with T3 characters on all sides of this debate (burst magic, ongoing melee, tank, spirit damage) I think I'm pretty fit to judge these things.  I encourage those that have only been on the receiving end of a spirit deck to honestly try to imagine how a spirit group would have to be set up, and then ask yourself how it even has a chance against a heavy focus single damage type group.
« Last Edit: 18:45:32 - 02/05/09 by Kasyn »
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Mef1729

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #3 on: 18:44:39 - 02/05/09 »
Interestingly enough, Dark Heirloom is the only buff that doesn't get its effects reduced when used on a multi-target charm.
It would be nice to see a squad built around that
...
okay, it would NOT be nice to see a squad built around that. Still...  :laugh:

Buffed up spirit damage is a unique thing, considering it's basically non-existent except for DH.  We wanted to get a squad built around it after the charm came out but it was hit with the nerf-stick and I already clearly explained exactly why this killed spirit as potentialy effective in groups.
Hm? I'm pretty sure that DH triggers once for every hit, so if you use one of those 1-spirit-to-all-targets things, you'll activate it on the first hit.
As for targeting, I suggest getting a slayer with sigils and placing somebody with willpower destruction right after the slayer. Add Cleansing Dance if you're really worried about Death Sentence/DoT, the rest can be spirit or other support charms. In fact, since sigils deal damage, the slayer purges would be really likely to hit the non-focused opponent...

Srdja

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #4 on: 18:52:19 - 02/05/09 »
As for targeting, I suggest getting a slayer with sigils and placing somebody with willpower destruction right after the slayer. Add Cleansing Dance if you're really worried about Death Sentence/DoT, the rest can be spirit or other support charms. In fact, since sigils deal damage, the slayer purges would be really likely to hit the non-focused opponent...

How exactly is my Sigil going to focus anyone at all? Slayer's Sigil
Slayer's Blades is going to focus the worst possible enemy so it's not going to work. Sky's Revenge is going to focus the tank and we all know that the most important thing is to first kill the person that does 0 damage :o
Using Purge in 4v4 is just silly, even if you shutdown one player, there will be 3 more coming at you. Not to mention you're probably going to Purge the tank anyhow.

Hm? I'm pretty sure that DH triggers once for every hit, so if you use one of those 1-spirit-to-all-targets things, you'll activate it on the first hit.
Before the nerf, DH was +1 to spirit (ongoing). Playing Psychic Cry against 4 enemies after Dark Heirloom was an 8 spirit hit (2 on each enemy).

Kasyn

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #5 on: 18:53:58 - 02/05/09 »
Interestingly enough, Dark Heirloom is the only buff that doesn't get its effects reduced when used on a multi-target charm.
It would be nice to see a squad built around that
...
okay, it would NOT be nice to see a squad built around that. Still...  :laugh:

Buffed up spirit damage is a unique thing, considering it's basically non-existent except for DH.  We wanted to get a squad built around it after the charm came out but it was hit with the nerf-stick and I already clearly explained exactly why this killed spirit as potentialy effective in groups.
Hm? I'm pretty sure that DH triggers once for every hit, so if you use one of those 1-spirit-to-all-targets things, you'll activate it on the first hit.
As for targeting, I suggest getting a slayer with sigils and placing somebody with willpower destruction right after the slayer. Add Cleansing Dance if you're really worried about Death Sentence/DoT, the rest can be spirit or other support charms. In fact, since sigils deal damage, the slayer purges would be really likely to hit the non-focused opponent...

No, since the change to the charm DH now takes an entire spirit rune to trigger the +1 to next effect, the AoE does not count as a multi-hit or anything that would be the exception case.

The with adding special targeting potential and then someone with lots of willpower destruction is ineffective for a few reasons.

Anyone with heavy willpower destruction is wasting charms - spirit itself is a form of willpower destruction so the ideal candidates are things like Withering Touch and Voodoo Heads - those alone would keep a focused target fresh out of willpower - anything extra would be overkill.  When you need to take down a combined 200 spirit in a 4v4 fight, it's difficult to do it when you have very little focus available to you and one of your players faces death from damage in probably three or four turns.  Maybe six or seven with a very good tank - but this draws the fight out which is not in favor of the spirit group that has no longer has ongoing boost available to it.  Purge would be nice in this situation, but it's often too little too late.

The best charms available for spirit users could not field a deck that would even come close to what four melee users with 5 Release Karma's and nothing but Renegade, Strike and Hyphused weapons could do.  This doesn't seem right to me, considering three of those elements are mid 30s.  I know I'm passing judgment on my own hypothetical situation here, but I'm comfortable enough with melee and spirit groups to honestly make this claim.
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Nastharl

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #6 on: 19:10:14 - 02/05/09 »
The short of it all,

HP has not risin in time w/ burst damage.

Spirit worked because you could kill someone before they could really smoke you back.

Burst is high enough now thanks to twice hitting charms getting double the buff from CPB (Yay zerkers mainly), and magic damage being so massivly high to start with. Spirit damage on the other hand, is decently countered vs its effective HP stat, spirit. The relative power of spirit is the same as always, but everything else has gotten much MORE powerful.

I think a good solution at this point, would be more woeful style charms, more poisons that do spi damage, and more Next Hit spirit style charms to burn through willpower.

Ongoing spirit was incredibly powerful, only REALLY counted with crown of prestiges, it got a bit overnerfed, and now they're lacking any kind of Oomf to their setups. I still often lose to spirit people in 1v1, but thats because CPB w/o blood frenzy/corrupted fireblade(dont have the stats) is lacking vs someone who makes the fight end faster.

Gothmogged

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #7 on: 19:11:21 - 02/05/09 »
We have had reasonably good results in GvG with Dark Heirlooms plus Psychic Cry and Soul Cry (we have a bunch of Deathknights).  Its awesome when a hit goes through that does 12 points of spirit damage (3 to each).  But as Kasyn notes, you can't really get this going when facing an elite pyro flame group.  By the time you get to that point you've already lost one of your team members.  
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Root of Corruption takes 125 melee damage
Root of Corruption is defeated.
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Thornscourge the Defiled is defeated.

Mef1729

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #8 on: 19:12:07 - 02/05/09 »
How exactly is my Sigil going to focus anyone at all? Slayer's Sigil
Slayer's Blades is going to focus the worst possible enemy so it's not going to work. Sky's Revenge is going to focus the tank and we all know that the most important thing is to first kill the person that does 0 damage :o
Yeah, I was thinking of Blades, sorry. The idea would be to put WP destruction (say... Nighmare or Vodoo Heads) right after the slayer, to make that willpower meaningless and take out the berskerker quickly. Might even be worth it in order to gank the hierarch.
Quote
Using Purge in 4v4 is just silly, even if you shutdown one player, there will be 3 more coming at you. Not to mention you're probably going to Purge the tank anyhow.
Good point, hadn't thought about Play With Fire, Release Karma and other self-damaging charms. Nix the purge.
Hm? I'm pretty sure that DH triggers once for every hit, so if you use one of those 1-spirit-to-all-targets things, you'll activate it on the first hit.
Before the nerf, DH was +1 to spirit (ongoing). Playing Psychic Cry against 4 enemies after Dark Heirloom was an 8 spirit hit (2 on each enemy).
[/quote]
And after the nerf, Psychic Cry against 4 enemies should be a 7 spirit hit (1 on the first, 2 on the others).

Srdja

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #9 on: 19:16:08 - 02/05/09 »
And after the nerf, Psychic Cry against 4 enemies should be a 7 spirit hit (1 on the first, 2 on the others).

DH gives +1 to next spirit, if you play DH and immediately after that Psychic cry it will be a 4 spirit hit. If you play DH, spirit charm and then Psychic Cry it will be 2 spirit on the first target and 1 on the rest, resulting in a 5 spirit hit.

Ugluk

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #10 on: 19:16:17 - 02/05/09 »
The other day I read in a class thread that "Voodoo heads were useless except situationally", and yet voodoo heads are a net 7 spirit.  Yet today I hear everyone complaining that WP has become too high.  This is what motivated my reaction.

As far as fairness goes, I am absolutely opposed to introducing higher-output spirit charms.  There are things that could be modified/improved/strategized better, and WP destruction could be more available.

1) I definitely think that DH could be restored to its original glory without balance issues, or at least given a finite time frame with no conditions.

2) A Voodoo head completely ignores a Release Karma, which is not cumulative ward.  Perhaps a high level sword charm that is similar to Voodoo head with a moderate -Melee (ongoing) would be useful.  A comparable shadow charm with - to next magic would also be fair.  Again, these debuff values should be very moderate. (like -6 or -7 melee ongoing and -40 to next magic)

3) Feet Bind negates all but +2 of Release Karma.  I think that is worthwhile.

4) Two nightmares kills 4 WP at a time.  I think something like this but with a longer run time could be a good DK group spirit charm.

5) Perhaps a simple straight 4 spirit craft with shadow/sword rune could be introduced as a L44+ charm.  That gives one more set to fill out a deck.

6) I'll admit that Mind Spike seems awfully lonely on the Focus front.  Again, a WP destruction focus and maybe one more Spriti focus wouldn't be out of line.

Ugluk

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #11 on: 19:24:22 - 02/05/09 »
And after the nerf, Psychic Cry against 4 enemies should be a 7 spirit hit (1 on the first, 2 on the others).

DH gives +1 to next spirit, if you play DH and immediately after that Psychic cry it will be a 4 spirit hit. If you play DH, spirit charm and then Psychic Cry it will be 2 spirit on the first target and 1 on the rest, resulting in a 5 spirit hit.

Have you tried this?  I can't find the thread where Lez explained the %'s for booster nerfs on AOE, but I would think that it would deal 2 spirit to at least 2 of the enemies.

Kasyn

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #12 on: 19:25:05 - 02/05/09 »
The short of it all,

HP has not risin in time w/ burst damage.

Spirit worked because you could kill someone before they could really smoke you back.

Burst is high enough now thanks to twice hitting charms getting double the buff from CPB (Yay zerkers mainly), and magic damage being so massivly high to start with. Spirit damage on the other hand, is decently countered vs its effective HP stat, spirit. The relative power of spirit is the same as always, but everything else has gotten much MORE powerful.

I think a good solution at this point, would be more woeful style charms, more poisons that do spi damage, and more Next Hit spirit style charms to burn through willpower.

Ongoing spirit was incredibly powerful, only REALLY counted with crown of prestiges, it got a bit overnerfed, and now they're lacking any kind of Oomf to their setups. I still often lose to spirit people in 1v1, but thats because CPB w/o blood frenzy/corrupted fireblade(dont have the stats) is lacking vs someone who makes the fight end faster.

More Woeful style charms are a step in the wrong direction.  We've discussed this in past topics, and combining spirit with damage strategies is completely wrongheaded.  (But Kasyn!  You have a chance at discarding their strong charms!  Why yes that's true, but you also have just as much a chance of discarding their weakest charms, AND the fact that there are enough great charms in the high 40s to have a 60 charm deck with no filler.)  Spirit poisons are nice because they avoid Crown and the - to spirit that is so popular as of the last couple dungeons, I have no complaints about Searing Mind in my spirit setups as it's a really solid charm.
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Mef1729

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #13 on: 19:28:43 - 02/05/09 »
No, since the change to the charm DH now takes an entire spirit rune to trigger the +1 to next effect, the AoE does not count as a multi-hit or anything that would be the exception case.
Ah, I get the problem then. Yeah, if the code counts it as a single attack then it's... bad. Would Hastened Head Hits count, or do we run into the "it's a buff so it doesn't trigger on extra actions" clause?
(however, for srdja: I am sure that I saw a 2-spirit-to-every-target attack, and I'm pretty confident that it was after DH's nerfing)
Quote
The with adding special targeting potential and then someone with lots of willpower destruction is ineffective for a few reasons.

Anyone with heavy willpower destruction is wasting charms - spirit itself is a form of willpower destruction so the ideal candidates are things like Withering Touch and Voodoo Heads - those alone would keep a focused target fresh out of willpower - anything extra would be overkill.  When you need to take down a combined 200 spirit in a 4v4 fight, it's difficult to do it when you have very little focus available to you and one of your players faces death from damage in probably three or four turns.  Maybe six or seven with a very good tank - but this draws the fight out which is not in favor of the spirit group that has no longer has ongoing boost available to it.  Purge would be nice in this situation, but it's often too little too late.
My idea for targetted WP distruction was that you'd rather want to take out the WP user quickly... but yeah, the focus still effectively uses a turn without giving "added damage". Even stuff like Ozza's Ash do not quite cut it at that level, and that is assuming that the user actually gets targeted.
Quote
The best charms available for spirit users could not field a deck that would even come close to what four melee users with 5 Release Karma's and nothing but Renegade, Strike and Hyphused weapons could do.  This doesn't seem right to me, considering three of those elements are mid 30s.  I know I'm passing judgment on my own hypothetical situation here, but I'm comfortable enough with melee and spirit groups to honestly make this claim.
This actually reminds me of the discussion about sages... are the mercenary ongoing debuffs limited to a measly -5/-6/-7 like sage ones?

Gothmogged

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Re: Thanks! [Balance discussion continued]
« Reply #14 on: 19:29:24 - 02/05/09 »
DH boosts all the damage if played after a spirit charm has already incremented the bonus.  This is taken from a guild battle this week.

Sukelywalker uses [Mind Cry]
Biggazza takes 2 spirit damage
[Challenger's Circlet] is discarded
[Challenger's Circlet] is discarded
Daemoklez takes 2 spirit damage
[Rogue Throwing Knives] is discarded
[Alloyed Tellium Katana] is discarded
Marineguy takes 2 spirit damage
[Major Earth Projection] is discarded
[Honor Axe] is discarded
Samhain takes 2 spirit damage
[Rapier] is discarded
[Renegade Falchion] is discarded
Biggazza's next magic attack is decreased by up to 26
Daemoklez's next magic attack is decreased by up to 26
Marineguy's next magic attack is decreased by up to 26
Samhain's next magic attack is decreased by up to 26

Marineguy collapses of exhaustion.
151 Gothmogged uses [Violette's Roses]
Gothmogged targets Root of Corruption
Root of Corruption takes 125 melee damage
Root of Corruption is defeated.
229  Gothmogged uses [Nature's Claw]
Thornscourge the Defiled takes 212 melee damage
Thornscourge the Defiled is defeated.