Author Topic: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul  (Read 67401 times)

Kasyn

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #45 on: 03:34:12 - 02/07/09 »
I saw with my own eyes how Machete killed Greydam with his pvp gear, thanks to the no-nerfed drains xD

Anyway, I just wanted to point out one thing, drain charms started being disbalanced when massive boosts were added to the game (Energy Wave mostly), never had a problem with them before that. Of course, the solution was good, because eventually more potent boost had to be introduced into the game.

Drain charms still had the problem of benefiting 200% from boosts (both the heal and the damage) before there were the charms to make it obvious to everyone that it was a problem.  The big boosts just brought attention to it, kind of like our first Yaxion kill pretty much ensured that ongoing + EA would be nerfed.  (And rightfully so.)
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Hellmaster

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #46 on: 03:59:05 - 02/07/09 »
There are a lot of charms that benefit two or three times from buffs. The difference is that they benefit only from ongoing boosts, so for example Slash and Thrust, would never be affected 2 times by a Fury Potion. Drain charms did this, and that's why become overpowered.

Kasyn

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #47 on: 05:05:48 - 02/07/09 »
There are a lot of charms that benefit two or three times from buffs. The difference is that they benefit only from ongoing boosts, so for example Slash and Thrust, would never be affected 2 times by a Fury Potion. Drain charms did this, and that's why become overpowered.

Multihit charms are purposely designed to benefit twice from ongoing, things like drain and AoE were unintentional.  AoE used to benefit at 100% for to next boost and it was quickly nerfed.  EA used to benefit 100% from ongoing and it was nerfed.  Multihit and those situations are entirely different.  Anyhow, I'm not really sure we're disagreeing here, all I'm saying is that's not quite the same situation.
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Almostfunny

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #48 on: 21:33:38 - 02/08/09 »
Just wanted to say thanks for the responses about melee strategy. It's nice to have some ideas for the time when I'll be fighting damage specialists using pure damage decks.  :)

Gothmogged

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #49 on: 20:24:12 - 02/16/09 »
As far as I can tell Corrupted Fireblade doesn't make a CPB deck that much more viable for Deathknights.  Basically ends up being a weaker set of Deathknight blades so vitamins and blue dragon bones are a little more useful, plus you get to drain a little more off of bonus giving pyros.   However, if you know you're fighting a pyro your charms are better spent on wards than magic buffs for your drains.  Cumulative ward charms like pyric charge and embroidered robes are much more reliable.  Cranking up your melee +ongoing with release karmas and getting a little more joy off life siphon in the process seems to work better as a general approach.   

Spirit or CPB are both sorta viable, but either will lose frequently to burst decks.  You just can't heal up enough with drains in the time given against a burst deck.

Corrupted fireblade has its uses, but it is not a game changer and is probably inferior to Impact in most 1v1 decks.

151 Gothmogged uses [Violette's Roses]
Gothmogged targets Root of Corruption
Root of Corruption takes 125 melee damage
Root of Corruption is defeated.
229  Gothmogged uses [Nature's Claw]
Thornscourge the Defiled takes 212 melee damage
Thornscourge the Defiled is defeated.

Bedtime

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #50 on: 20:59:17 - 02/16/09 »
Corrupted fireblade is not a game changer like release karma is. Fact

I don't think going on the drain/buff offensive is even worth the hassle as a DK in PvP, there are more classes with better class charms and better appropriate stats that will generally beat us, if both players are on top of their game. They're useful in the dungeons, but we want ego boosts and there are no ego boosts better than beating players in PvP (maybe epics get close, but not that close). I can't use the fireblade yet, but will probably buy it and use it, but using it in PvP, nope.

So I see the only competitive way is going spirit/turtle on everyone. Past lvl40, there isn't many spirit charms worth bothering with, alot are useless, some are worth it. Dark hierloom is the best as with power corruption, soul cry, soul drain etc, you can get some good spirit damage up, its a bit slow, but hey, im not gonna complain. Another good solid charm is Soul Harvest. If your opponent is using willpower, its as bad as using a lvl22 charm. If not, its like a weaker damaging version of soul drain, but as there are so few charms past lvl40, its a good gear filling charm.


Hellmaster

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #51 on: 00:58:42 - 02/17/09 »
Corrupted Fireblade is a good charm, it benefits x1.5 from ongoing boosts, and it heals you. It's kind of a Slash and Thrust, but changing raw power for healing. It's far better than DK Blade or Life Siphon. I use them even I'm not a DK, and they work very well for me.

Bedtime

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #52 on: 01:36:34 - 02/17/09 »
Yes but as a assassin, you don't have that many other options ;)

And i'd much rather have life siphon than it. A return of 90 against a bursting no armour using player, is one of the best.

Gothmogged

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #53 on: 02:58:21 - 02/17/09 »
Corrupted Fireblade is a good charm, it benefits x1.5 from ongoing boosts, and it heals you. It's kind of a Slash and Thrust, but changing raw power for healing. It's far better than DK Blade or Life Siphon. I use them even I'm not a DK, and they work very well for me.
I'm failing to understand how its better.

Deathknight BladeLife SiphonCorrupted Fireblade
30 Melee (20% P)45 Melee drain25 Melee (20% P)
24 Magic drain16 Melee drain (20% P)
Requires Level 40[Requires Level 41Requires Level 44
Deathknight (R3)Deathknight (R3)460 Dex   403 Pow
Sword (R5)

To my eyes the one on the right is weaker than the left in every case but one.  That one is if you're fighting someone warded in which case you will get a piddling 3 more hit points, maybe a handful more under boost.  Life siphon is only one attack, so in a CPB with dual boosts its not as good, but its much harder to make a solid dual boost deck than a single boost deck unless you're an earth user, in which case you have the wrong stats for Fireblade.

151 Gothmogged uses [Violette's Roses]
Gothmogged targets Root of Corruption
Root of Corruption takes 125 melee damage
Root of Corruption is defeated.
229  Gothmogged uses [Nature's Claw]
Thornscourge the Defiled takes 212 melee damage
Thornscourge the Defiled is defeated.

Kasyn

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #54 on: 09:18:05 - 02/17/09 »
Fireblade is better than Life Siphon because it is a double hit, which gives it tons more damage potential than LS.

Fireblade is better than DK Blade because it's melee multihit, whereas DK blade splits melee and magic.  If you were to run with some ongoing melee boost in a drain setup (which would be optimal) the magic hit of the DK blade wouldn't be boosted.  It's limited this way in its damage potential, whereas CF is not.

IMO Fireblade is an extremely solid charm, and a worthy addition to 100% of any ongoing boost melee setups, and just about every other situation.
« Last Edit: 09:19:37 - 02/17/09 by Kasyn »
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Hellmaster

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #55 on: 10:30:51 - 02/17/09 »
I think Kasyn explained it pretty well.

Gothmogged: Maybe you were confused and thought the draining part was magic, just like DK Blade.

Gothmogged

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #56 on: 14:06:32 - 02/17/09 »
You are right, somehow I had a complete failure to notice that Fireblade wasn't split damage.  I think the name screwed with my head.  Fire + Blade.  Sounds like a split damage charm.
151 Gothmogged uses [Violette's Roses]
Gothmogged targets Root of Corruption
Root of Corruption takes 125 melee damage
Root of Corruption is defeated.
229  Gothmogged uses [Nature's Claw]
Thornscourge the Defiled takes 212 melee damage
Thornscourge the Defiled is defeated.

Gothmogged

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #57 on: 22:26:22 - 03/03/09 »
Added Demoniac Deal to the class charm post.  2 spirit 18 melee drain if opponent's will is 0 over 5 turns.  So its been considerably toned down a bit from the proposed version people were crying OP about.   Now its better than Soul Harvest (2 level lower non-class) if you can keep their willpower down and they aren't armored.  If they get WP 3/5 turns its worse.  If they have 90+ armor, you only get 30 healing.   Looks to me like it would be quite difficult to use in a non-spirit deck unless you know the enemy has no willpower.  2 spirit isn't enough to break through any T3 WP charm.  So you'd need to mix in a fair amount something else doing WP destruction, which would seriously dilute your melee damage.
151 Gothmogged uses [Violette's Roses]
Gothmogged targets Root of Corruption
Root of Corruption takes 125 melee damage
Root of Corruption is defeated.
229  Gothmogged uses [Nature's Claw]
Thornscourge the Defiled takes 212 melee damage
Thornscourge the Defiled is defeated.

Ugluk

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #58 on: 22:55:26 - 03/03/09 »
Added Demoniac Deal to the class charm post.  2 spirit 18 melee drain if opponent's will is 0 over 5 turns.  So its been considerably toned down a bit from the proposed version people were crying OP about.   Now its better than Soul Harvest (2 level lower non-class) if you can keep their willpower down and they aren't armored.  If they get WP 3/5 turns its worse.  If they have 90+ armor, you only get 30 healing.   Looks to me like it would be quite difficult to use in a non-spirit deck unless you know the enemy has no willpower.  2 spirit isn't enough to break through any T3 WP charm.  So you'd need to mix in a fair amount something else doing WP destruction, which would seriously dilute your melee damage.

It's actually 36 damage if they have 90+ armor.  They wrote 30% by accident, but supposedly it actually runs at 40% as they mentioned in the DK charm thread.

Gothmogged

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Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
« Reply #59 on: 02:48:34 - 03/05/09 »
After way too much discussion Demoniac Deal ended up implemented as a charm even Nipal calls boring.  It manages not to really take on any of the scaling problems with spirit vs burst.  On a good draw it will negate 1 burster turn.   Design by committee and you get mediocrity.   Maybe less input next time from people who don't actually play the class.

poor dks got that boring 2spi+drain charm, they can solo yaxion with 5 copies of that but i personally find it totally uninteresting to play.

If the Yaxion comment were actually true I'd be a lot more excited about it.  The alternative had I think only one vocal fan, and it wasn't me.  At least they put the new dungeon right next to Eclis so we have a short walk and I can try out a few in coli tonight :)

151 Gothmogged uses [Violette's Roses]
Gothmogged targets Root of Corruption
Root of Corruption takes 125 melee damage
Root of Corruption is defeated.
229  Gothmogged uses [Nature's Claw]
Thornscourge the Defiled takes 212 melee damage
Thornscourge the Defiled is defeated.