Estiah Forum

General Forum => Class Discussion => Topic started by: Ugluk on 21:09:54 - 02/04/09

Title: Thanks!
Post by: Ugluk on 21:09:54 - 02/04/09
Thanks for cleaning up the strategy and giving us a special place to commiserate with other Classy folks just like us!!!

OK, lame class joke.

On another funny note........ has anyone noticed that there are 2 devs and one of them is a member of the only class without a thread?
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Wolfsoul on 21:16:39 - 02/04/09
You know, actually there already been four s........... topics, but somebody keeps finishing off anyone who tries to post it... my guess is that... butler did it... or it was a maid, i dunno... but theres something fishy here... better not utter that word...
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Ugluk on 21:31:16 - 02/04/09
You know, actually there already been four s........... topics, but somebody keeps finishing off anyone who tries to post it... my guess is that... butler did it... or it was a maid, i dunno... but theres something fishy here... better not utter that word...

It was the SoBE mascot, in the Nether Portal, with the Major Earth Blast!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Mef1729 on 21:39:37 - 02/04/09
Thanks for cleaning up the strategy and giving us a special place to commiserate with other Classy folks just like us!!!

OK, lame class joke.

On another funny note........ has anyone noticed that there are 2 devs and one of them is a member of the only class without a thread?
I believe that the other dev is a member of the first class to get a thread, as well.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Wolfsoul on 21:47:03 - 02/04/09
And guess who made it?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!??!?!?!!???!!?!??  :laugh: No, seriously, who made it?
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Mef1729 on 21:50:47 - 02/04/09
We are not sure, here is the main suspect.
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/dnields/LOLCAT.jpg)
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Wolfsoul on 21:53:29 - 02/04/09
Ohhh noesss, i have been defeated!!!!! Killed with my own weapon... I shall retreat for now, but my revenge shall be ... sweet...
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Lezard on 22:07:19 - 02/04/09
I think nobody likes us :(
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Gothmogged on 22:26:22 - 02/04/09
I have an alt going to Summoner, just to see what this class is like.  Info isn't exactly widely available, but I'll throw something together based on what I can find.   Maybe it will get some actual Summoners to contribute knowledge.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Chronosz on 00:58:18 - 02/05/09
Summoners are by far the most unique and underrated class in the game. Every summoner I fight doesn't even really use summons. They spam boosts and earth charms... They seem to be better at long battles, not short spam battles.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Fenrir on 01:17:29 - 02/05/09
Lezard I think is the only summoner I've seen that runs pure summon attack, I'm sure that there are others, but Lez is the only one that I've noticed.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Gothmogged on 01:31:03 - 02/05/09
Out of 403 L40+ players,  19 are Summoners.  4.7% vs the 8.3% one would get with an even distribution.  So roughly speaking they are about half as common as we would expect if all things were equal.  If you sort by rating none of them turn up until page 4, so its clearly not drawing PvP addicts.  Which should surprise no one since burst is the top strategy with spirit running somewhere in second.  Summon charms are not burst friendly and POW/CON is not Spirit friendly, so Summoners are pretty much stuck trying to make do with a DoT setup that doesn't have the anti EA benefit of poisons.   Red headed stepchildren of Estiah.





Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Bactrian on 02:42:17 - 02/05/09
Eh, I've always imagined summoners to be awesome in team fights. You (sometimes) have the time to build up a whole lot of summons and keep them alive with summoner's mark etc. and the focus summon looks pretty awesome. It would be nice to see split damage teams, which i think would help the summoner out a lot in terms of the summons they can use but its not really the done thing. (experimentation time?)

Also they have a spirit summon so if they have a dex subset they should have access to almost all the nonclass spirit charms.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Kasyn on 05:05:58 - 02/05/09
Out of 403 L40+ players,  19 are Summoners.  4.7% vs the 8.3% one would get with an even distribution.  So roughly speaking they are about half as common as we would expect if all things were equal.  If you sort by rating none of them turn up until page 4, so its clearly not drawing PvP addicts.  Which should surprise no one since burst is the top strategy with spirit running somewhere in second.  Summon charms are not burst friendly and POW/CON is not Spirit friendly, so Summoners are pretty much stuck trying to make do with a DoT setup that doesn't have the anti EA benefit of poisons.   Red headed stepchildren of Estiah.

Actually I'd disagree quite strongly with this, it's wrong to judge the current Summoners potential based on the lack of interest the current players have for PvP.  The class has some extremely strong summons, and beyond that there are some outside of class summons that are absolutely amazing.  (I'd also strongly disagree that spirit is somewhere in second, constant boost and burst are at the top undoubtedly.  Spirit is absolutely pathetic in groups at this point and it's lost some luster in 1v1 because some new charms have completely destroyed the risk vs. reward dynamic of compromising damage to add willpower to your gear.  I'm looking at you, Release Karma.) 

Seriously, summons can be very dangerous with the right kind of deck - there are just so many great extend summon charms that synergize so well with the class.

Don't look at performance of the players to judge these things, look at the charms and the potential.  With things like Lesser Summoning, Crimson Devil, the summon-based heal, and Phoenix Offspring (which is in my opinion one of the strongest charms in the game - 88 damage and a summon extension?  It's absolutely perfect.) it's really unconvincing to say the class is lacking in any way.  The players of the class are just under the radar.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Gothmogged on 05:53:12 - 02/05/09
Its certainly possible that Summoners could kick ass.  That is why I'm trying to make one (just 5 more levels to go) so I can explore the possibilities first hand. 

In terms of judging the class by existing players, well that is the only evidence commonly available.  How do you discount that evidence?  Do you assume that the existing players of Summoners lack the intellect,  imagination, or desire to excel at PvP?  These are all possible explanations, but require that we somehow explain the bias of such players towards Summoner.  I think the real cause goes in the other direction.  The Summoner class is not attracting PvPers in the same proportion as other classes due to its history of not dominating PvP as much as the usual suspects, Pyromaniacs and Berserkers. 

You are right about Spirit being a waning strategy.  My perception was biased.  Now that I look around I see that  there are only 2 spirit class players in the top 20, and spirit is only half of what is keeping me there. 

The potential of summon charms is certainly intriguing.  But I honestly can't recall the last time I was even attacked by a summon deck, let alone lost to one.  You point out some interesting charms, but those are L44 and not class charms.  Not exactly the bread and butter of the typical summoner.  Also, 11 magic over 8 turns= 88 damage (assuming you live that long) seems at best competitive with typical boost tactics, and not even close to what can be done with Ice Spikes and constant boost.  What force multipliers exist for summons?  All I've seen are things that make them last longer.  Longer summons are difficult to wait around for when Pyros are hitting you for 250 dam.

Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Destructobeam on 06:14:53 - 02/05/09
Uhh yeah, spirit as second is a joke. It's pretty much near the bottom. Release karma and other charms with free willpower (release karma won't see a decline in use just because it suddenly doesn't have willpower) have basically turned decks that were once weak to spirit because they took time to start up (time WAS an ally of spirit based decks) into pretty much a 70%+win without effort. Guess the whiners got what they wanted. Melee users no longer need to balance willpower/damage with release karma, and nearly half of all the armor/ward now comes with ever increasing amounts of willpower.

Meanwhile, there's only 2-3 viable spirit charms that do something useful along with spirit damage. Inquisitors are stuck with a nerfed class that has almost zero group viability (except with other spirit users - and even then its a crapshoot at best) and progressively weaker 1v1 pvp.

The new 'spirit' charm was the latest twist in the knife - an anti-spirit spirit charm? Really? How about something that eats the 25 free willpower you get from placing 5 release karma's into a deck? Shadow whisper (which you can get at 30) is 10X more useful, and doesn't require massive amounts of money.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Kasyn on 06:29:56 - 02/05/09
Uhh yeah, spirit as second is a joke. It's pretty much near the bottom. Release karma and other charms with free willpower (release karma won't see a decline in use just because it suddenly doesn't have willpower) have basically turned decks that were once weak to spirit because they took time to start up (time WAS an ally of spirit based decks) into pretty much a 70%+win without effort. Guess the whiners got what they wanted. Melee users no longer need to balance willpower/damage with release karma, and nearly half of all the armor/ward now comes with ever increasing amounts of willpower.

Meanwhile, there's only 2-3 viable spirit charms that do something useful along with spirit damage. Inquisitors are stuck with a nerfed class that has almost zero group viability (except with other spirit users - and even then its a crapshoot at best) and progressively weaker 1v1 pvp.

The new 'spirit' charm was the latest twist in the knife - an anti-spirit spirit charm? Really? How about something that eats the 25 free willpower you get from placing 5 release karma's into a deck? Shadow whisper (which you can get at 30) is 10X more useful, and doesn't require massive amounts of money.

Yep, that pretty much covered it.  The problem that lead to this is exactly what I'm trying to prevent with summons, it's the same misconception that the game should be balanced based on player performance and impressions.  Not everyone is interested in PvP, and some people are more interested in it than others.  If a few good players did really well as a mediocre class, does that mean the class is good?  No, it just means those players are doing well with what they have.  The big caveat is that often hyper-successful players ARE indicitive of balance issues, but it's not even close to a necessary truth.

Anyhow, I know I've hijacked the topic (to be fair I didn't start it) but I just find it frustrating that shortsighted balance attempts for the sake of quelling the mob effectively killed a whole strategy, and basically an entire class.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Nipal on 11:07:05 - 02/05/09
summoners can do everything but are good at none. zerker's hack&slash style definitely ownz.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Kasyn on 15:50:54 - 02/05/09
summoners can do everything but are good at none. zerker's hack&slash style definitely ownz.

I disagree about Summoners, if I had the Con to use some of the awesome Earth magic stuff that's out there right now, I could be pretty competitive with that.  Bewilderment, Forbidden Vitamin, Earthfury, Rockslide (which would be INSANE with dual ongoing boost) and a few of the strongest summons would be an extremely effective deck.  It's a pretty versatile class but I think a lot of people really underestimate it.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Ugluk on 16:56:33 - 02/05/09
OK, this is the second "spirit has been weakened too much" post I've seen today.  Please explain why spirit is no longer a viable strategy in group PvP.

Just because more people run WP doesn't make it impossible to win with spirit, it just makes it take longer.  There are a lot of WP reduction charms out there (voodoo head, Nightmare, etc.).  You may need to alter your strategy from "burst spirit" to "tank spirit", but it's doable.  There are plenty of ongoing debuffs, cumulative armor/ward, and healing that are available to people that want to take the long view of spirit.  It will also likely require a lot of focus. (Which goes back to another thread by Warassassin that would make cumulative focus a part of the game)  I think the value of incorporating Deathknights to support the Inquisitors is also going to go up.  I've always seen Inquisitors as the "Berserker of Spirit" and the Deathknight as the "Champion of Spirit".  Basically, that the Inquisitor does more raw Spirit damage, but the DK can destroy the protection before dealing slightly less raw damage.

If those methods are employed, and winning is still unbalanced, a high-level spirit/shifting defense charm could be introduced  to help negate the effect Erythic Flames and Release Karma are having.......ugh, why do I do this to my own class?  I highly doubt something like that is required though.  Just get creative.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Bedtime on 17:20:51 - 02/05/09
If you look at 1v1's atm around lvl42, all I see is 90% berserkers/pyro's winning, if you call that fair, I have no idea where you're coming from. I've completely given up on 1v1 and I doubt unless something happens, that i'll go back.

In 2v2's, the spirit team I am in use to win alot but lately, all you need is 2 average berserkers to beat us everytime. Spirit users have so few spirit charms post 40 to pad out a 50+ deck. There is no PvP charm (with nightmare being almost useless if you're facing a non-berserker team). DK's get 2 spirit charms, 1 which is useless in anything less than 4v4 and another what is a 3 spirit charm with a small heal and theres been 4 spirit charms since lvl 30. Post lvl 40, there's dark heirloom that is good but there are no 4 or more spirit charms, they'll just add small fairly pointless side effects (eg. a 2 spirit charm healing 50 damage is ok, but when the base attack of a berserker is 70 with 3 cumulative willpower, its useless).  I don't enter 3v3's but im guessing it will be much of the same.

I think the problem with players not going summoner is that there is no lvl3/4 summoning pre-40, so players just stop using them as soon as they get lvl2. I think some of the summon charms post lvl40 are great, but by then its too late.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Destructobeam on 17:58:50 - 02/05/09
Just because more people run WP doesn't make it impossible to win with spirit, it just makes it take longer.  There are a lot of WP reduction charms out there (voodoo head, Nightmare, etc.).  You may need to alter your strategy from "burst spirit" to "tank spirit", but it's doable. 

Burst spirit? Even before the nerf patches, any deck that ran pure spirit would get run over in a short while. The best spirit users I've come across are all variations of the 'tank spirit' - the trick to a good spirit deck was managing the right amount of spirit cards with enough cards to keep you alive. Now its just seeing if you're lucky enough to meet up with spirit users, pure summoners (all 1 of them) or pyros with not enough charms.

As for you balance question - I'm sure you wouldn't mind it if release karma came with the equivalent ward instead of willpower right? I mean, that's only around 120 or so free ward for a charm that nearly EVERY MELEE user will use regardless. Group fights, 1v1, 2v2 - you'll be seeing it all day every day. Maybe I don't know much about Pyromaniacs, mine still needs work, but coping with that would be difficult. That's what inquisitors and deathknights that use spirit have to do in 1v1, 2v2, etc... and they don't have an 'ignite' equivalent. Good luck making a 'tank pyro deck' that doesn't get its teeth kicked in by penetration and death sentence.

Inquisitors and death knights are at a disadvantage against berserkers - they're practically built to fight spirit users - but having spirit be at a disadvantage to an ENTIRE SUBSET of classes that use melee as primary damage is another thing entirely.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Nyoko on 18:18:18 - 02/05/09
How does Kasyn turn every thread into a class controversy?

Ps. this thread is for paying thanks for a class forum
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Kasyn on 18:19:57 - 02/05/09
OK, this is the second "spirit has been weakened too much" post I've seen today.  Please explain why spirit is no longer a viable strategy in group PvP.

Just because more people run WP doesn't make it impossible to win with spirit, it just makes it take longer.  There are a lot of WP reduction charms out there (voodoo head, Nightmare, etc.).  You may need to alter your strategy from "burst spirit" to "tank spirit", but it's doable.  There are plenty of ongoing debuffs, cumulative armor/ward, and healing that are available to people that want to take the long view of spirit.  It will also likely require a lot of focus. (Which goes back to another thread by Warassassin that would make cumulative focus a part of the game)  I think the value of incorporating Deathknights to support the Inquisitors is also going to go up.  I've always seen Inquisitors as the "Berserker of Spirit" and the Deathknight as the "Champion of Spirit".  Basically, that the Inquisitor does more raw Spirit damage, but the DK can destroy the protection before dealing slightly less raw damage.

If those methods are employed, and winning is still unbalanced, a high-level spirit/shifting defense charm could be introduced  to help negate the effect Erythic Flames and Release Karma are having.......ugh, why do I do this to my own class?  I highly doubt something like that is required though.  Just get creative.

Maybe we should move the topic or something seeing as it's now an entirely different discussion, but it isn't exactly a flamewar so I think it's still potentially productive.

Anyhow, spirit is inert right now because of a few reasons.  With melee, Release Karma has singlehandedly broken the decision players had to make between absolute maximum damage and the safety against spirit users that some willpower and lowered damage would earn you.  The charm combines the best non-class melee buff in the game with enough willpower to fend off two spirit attacks - this completely trivializes the strategic decision that people had to struggle with (and is often the reason so many people hated spirit decks, they were reluctant to water down their super offense just to fend off spirit damage.).  This also helped keep pure damage in check a little bit, instead of being really really good it's now undeniably number one.  The ideal willpower charms should be a tradeoff between damage and willpower - the strongest melee buff in Estiah is far from this.  

Magic has slowly overtaken spirit because of things like Energy Wave, Erythic Flames, and Backdraft Flame - burst magic has scaled up, spirit damage has not.  The last good spirit damage charm that has been added was Soul Harvest, and in that time damage has received so much more because giving good charms to spirit damage has been such a touchy thing since Dark Heirloom.  (Which, IMO to remove the ongoing effect AND make it have to trigger a spirit attack before it takes effect completely neutered the core charm that would have made spirit damage competitive at this point in time.)

'Tank spirit' has always been an option but because pure damage and focus is just so much more effective compared to the awfully inadequate Mind Spike (Woeful's Inquisition is good for the focus but as a core method of focus a combo is a horrible thing to rely on) and the nothing else spirit users have to rely on for focus.  Psychic Cry + Dark Heirloom was a potential balance for group spirit damage to, but because of the way DH works now (the one turn to trigger it would be four wasted turns of getting bursted down, which is probably going to be nearly half your HP) that no longer is viable.  Even if a good spirit focus were added to the game, it's far too little too late.

This is mostly why I don't want an Inquisitor spirit charm for the next one - it would be a dreadful waste no matter how good the charm was because there are just so many other factors that have lead to it being a strategy that is more or less dead in the water.  

Anyhow, as someone with T3 characters on all sides of this debate (burst magic, ongoing melee, tank, spirit damage) I think I'm pretty fit to judge these things.

(Maybe we should make another topic for general discussion of this?)

Nyoko - I didn't really start this, it went from a tangent on Summoners to a comment that I replied to that Goth made.  And like I said, this hasn't turned into a flamewar and I think discussion of game balance is generally pretty productive especially when so many insightful players participate.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Mef1729 on 18:23:02 - 02/05/09
Interestingly enough, Dark Heirloom is the only buff that doesn't get its effects reduced when used on a multi-target charm.
It would be nice to see a squad built around that
...
okay, it would NOT be nice to see a squad built around that. Still...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Kasyn on 18:29:00 - 02/05/09
Interestingly enough, Dark Heirloom is the only buff that doesn't get its effects reduced when used on a multi-target charm.
It would be nice to see a squad built around that
...
okay, it would NOT be nice to see a squad built around that. Still...  :laugh:

Buffed up spirit damage is a unique thing, considering it's basically non-existent except for DH.  We wanted to get a squad built around it after the charm came out but it was hit with the nerf-stick and I already clearly explained exactly why this killed spirit as potentialy effective in groups.
Title: Re: Thanks!
Post by: Kasyn on 18:29:44 - 02/05/09
Guys - I'm making a topic for this in game discussion so we can moderate ourselves a little bit here, just continue in there as if you were replying to posts here, if you want.