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Title: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 22:04:52 - 12/30/08
(http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/deathknight.jpg)

Deathknight

We will rip the life force from your body and make merry sport with it.  The Deathknight prevails by going beyond simple force to use the strength of our enemies against them.  True victory comes from having first made your  enemy grovel before you.


Deathknight provides both Sap and Spirit charms.  These are typically combined into a Spirit attacking strategy which relies on weakening techniques to keep the enemy too debuffed to do you significant harm while you rip their soul out.  They can also be combined with a melee and melee drain assault to simply pulverize the enemy while using their life force to heal yourself.

Deathknights are recruited from two paths:

Scout-->Rogue
Fighter-->Mercenary

The former case is more common, particularly for Spirit users, as the Scout Hastened Head Hit remains the only extra action spirit attack in the game as of this writing.  Regardless, you will need Dex primary and Power secondary to qualify.  Int is slightly more useful than Con for most of the debuff backup charms you might care to use.

Requirements
In order to qualify you will need: 350 Dex, 300 Power, 1 Mark of Domination, 1 Mark of Salvation.
Skills:Remorseless 1, Spirit Breaker 3, Sacrifice 1, Sap 1, Sword 4, Shadow 2
Spirit users should have little trouble satisfying those requirements.  I highly recommend you also max Sap and Iron Will as these will give you access to extremely useful charms and some extra spirit.

You would also be smart to have 5 Marks of Unity, 3 Faith, and 3 Insight, and fifty six thousand gold pieces, because those will be necessary to buy class charms.  The Unity marks can wait until you hit level 41, so you have time to assemble a team of like minded individuals.  Hang onto any Flashing Gusts or Eternal Breezes you pick up in the trials, you can craft up stat boosting foods using them later.


Class Charms

DeathKnight Blade
   
Soul Feast
   
Touch of Decay
Fee:10000g    Fee:10000g    Fee:6000g
Materials:Mark of Salvation x1    Materials:Mark of Domination x1    Materials:Mark of Insight x1



DeathKnight Blade    Soul Feast    Touch of Decay
30 Melee (20% P)    3 Spirit    25 Melee (20% P)
24 Magic Drain    Heal 27 damage    -63 to target's next melee
Level 40    Level 40    Level 40



materials crafts 5 charms    materials crafts 5 charms    materials crafts 2 charms
   
   
Death Plate
   
Mind Cry
   
Life Siphon
Fee:6000g    Fee:4000g    Fee:5000g
Materials:Mark of Faith x1    Materials:Mark of Unity x1    Materials:Harvester Insignia x1



Death Plate    Mind Cry    Life Siphon
94 Armor    (target all enemies)    45 Melee drain
4 Willpower    1 Spirit   
    -26 to target's next magic   
Level 40    Level 41    Level 41



materials crafts 2 charms    materials crafts 1 charm    materials crafts 1 charm
   
   
Shatter Hope
   
Despair
   
Demoniac Deal
Fee:10000g    Fee:15000g    Fee:20000g
Materials:Alchemist Insignia x1    Materials:King Insignia x1    Materials:Life Insignia x1



Shatter Hope    Despair    Demoniac Deal
Destroy 6 willpower    -12 to target's melee (ongoing)    2 Spirit
-41 to target's next melee    -12 to target's magic (ongoing)    18 melee drain (30%p)
-41 to target's next magic        if opponent's
        willpower is 0 during
5 turns
Level 42    Level 43    Level 44



materials crafts 1 charm    materials crafts 1 charm    materials crafts 1 charm
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 02:30:05 - 12/31/08
Beyond Class Charms

As a Deathknight your class charms really support only spirt and melee strategies.  Inquisitors have better burst spirit options and Berserkers have better damage output.  Do not let this dismay you, raw damage output is important, but  careful use of debuffs, drains, and defensive charms can steal victory away from your hasty competitors.

Dexterity and Power as primary, along with your class charms,  place you as the premier sword user in Estiah.  Shadow runes and their associated banes will also come somewhat easily and can be considered as a basis for a bane centric strategy.  Inquisitors will have a natural advantage over you with respect to banes, but a solid bane deck can make for a nice surprise defense deck.  Finally, CPB magic can be considered, but it is a non-class strategy whose practicality depends entirely on your statistic growth and charm collection progress.

Spirit

The spirit strategy is the workhorse of Deathknights.  Collect every spirit charm in the game, you will find a use for them in PvE if not in PvP.   A mostly complete listing of spirit charms can be found on the wiki http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Spirit (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Spirit).  The ones listed below are worth special attention.


Dark Heirloom (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Dark_Heirloom)

This is the only real buff for spirit in Estiah.  Note that this aura is triggered only by spirit runes and +tonext is discharged only on direct spirit attacks.  This means that spirit banes, like Colithon Skull and Nightmare will trigger the +tonext bonus without discharging it.  These feature can be used to accumulate large tonext bonuses for larger spirit hits.  Note that the +tonext bonus is added to each target of an area of effect spirit attack.  This means that having +1 boosts a Mind Cry to hit 3 opponents for 2pts each in a 6pt spirit attack, and so on.  Do whatever you have to do to beat King of no Man to have all of these ready for level 42, you'll need to run it a lot for Psychic Cry and Woeful's Whip anyway.


Psychic Cry (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Psychic_Cry)

A slightly weaker (no debuff) version of Mind Cry.  Combine these with Dark Heirloom to form the foundation of your group spirit strategy.

Woeful's Whip (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Woeful's_Whip)

The only spirit combo in Estiah.  Sadly, both whips, used by different characters, must pass the armor condition and be used within a few turns to trigger the extra spirit and focus.  Even without the combo this gives you an ok 3 spirit charm for PvE.

Curse of Pandamius (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Curse_of_Pandamius)

The only epic spirit charm in Estiah is only useful in groups.  Note that banes are tripped by extra attacks, but do not lose duration thereby.  This makes a group of Pandamius users, combined with other spirit banes, one of the most dreaded group configurations in the game.

Colithon Skull (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Colithon_Skull)

The only generally available true spirit bane in Estiah.  This combines well with Pandamius, Vicious Circle, and perhaps Death Spin.

Death Spin (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Death_Spin)

Death Spin is a gambit which sort of acts like a 3+ spirit charm with an extra chance to trip any previously laid spirit banes. The downside of this is that it gives your opponent an extra attack, which may be your undoing.  Worth using if you can pile the banes on, highly unreliable otherwise.  Indispensable in several PvE situations.

Vicious Circle (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Vicious_Circle)

The 2 spirit hit is weak unless you have a reasonable expectation of hitting some banes.  Difficult in 1v if you aren't an inquisitor, but not too difficult a condition to meet in group fights.

Earth Dragon Crown (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Earth_Dragon_Crown)

One of the better 2 spirit charms around.  Its cumulative ward can save your life and provides good synergy with Bel'Hathal.

Gloom Knell (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Gloom_Knell)

The best 2 spirit charm around.  The defense granted by this bane is quite good.

Robes of Majesty (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Robes_of_Majesty)

A good 3 pointer to fill out your spirit deck, gives you a leg up against other spirit.


Melee

Get 5 Fencing from hatred, fill out with swords and cpb.  If you expect to face direct damage, throw in some Scorpion Stances and possibly Frigid Damsels.

The swords that matter are Corrupted Fireblade, Colithon Claymore, Mind-Disrupting Blade, Celestial Sword (if you have FotE or battle-molded axes or in Strike groups), Nazohi Blades,  Glorious Claymore, Hyphused Slasher, Frigid Damsel, Life Siphon and Deathknight's Crest.  Blade of Betrayal is worth picking up, but somewhat hazardous in a CPB deck.  You can usually fill the deck out with about a dozen non-EA non-swords like release karma, slash n thrust, fury of the elements, battle-molded axe, battle-forged spear and not compromise the Fencing too much.

If you can arrange your stats to use Void Bolt.  Do so.  It supercedes Slash n Thrust quite handily.


Bane

One part: Petrification + Metal Melt
Two parts: Staff of Decay, Abyss, Black Death
Four parts: Firebrand, Blacknerve Mixture, and your strongest magic banes
Garnish with a few Left Ear of Menithos to keep the spirits away.

Serve in a tall glass of whoop-ass for the jokers coming at you with willpower and armor.


Other

Crown of Prestige (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Crown_of_Prestige)

The -1 to ongoing can shut down a spirit deck, often worth having on hand.  It makes cleanse tempting and you can sometimes get away with throwing a few in your defense deck depending on how baney your environment is.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 14:04:26 - 12/31/08
Im 2 levels away from turning Deathknight and I can't wait to use the dual aspects of the game with it :] I didn't realise that 1 mark of domination for example makes x5 soul feasts, I've been walking around with x5 of all the trial marks bar unity since lvl 35 ;)

And a hell of alot more cash than I needed aswell...

I do wonder whether to buy x5 hastened head hits though, I've never really thought that I would need them in my spirit decks that usually work very well, any current deathknights with any suggestions?
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Azharh on 14:38:07 - 12/31/08
"Hastened Head Hit" is a scout-class charm... If you were taking the Fighter/Mercenary path, you'll never be able to use this useful charm...
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 19:15:40 - 12/31/08
I use Hastened Head Hit in my spirit deck.  Unless I'm fighting another spirit user I'm really not in danger of running out of charms.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Retrospect on 19:16:36 - 01/01/09
Just want to ask if going through the scout/ shaman path would give a big advantage since right now I'm doing the secondary method with my character.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Slalderma on 20:05:48 - 01/01/09
The two routes have different advantages and disadvantages.

Going scout>rogue>DK gives you DoTs (from the scout and rogue), high damage charms with penetration (from the rogue), and lots of extra action charms (scout).  Most of these are at the cost of self-spirit damage (nicely countered by the Death Plate and other charms you'll pick up on the way).  Since the DK doesn't have a lot of high-damage charms, this route can give you access to some of these, plus EAs and DoTs to wear down your opponent and make the most of the T3 charms.

Going fighter>mercenary>DK doesn't give you any EAs or DoTs BUT it does give you access to charms with armor/ward destruction (from the fighter) and high damage charms (from the mercenary) at the cost of self-armor loss.  In 1v1 PvP (and most PvP in general), you're not going to be playing a lot of armor/ward charms anyway (unless you spirit turtle in which case it doesn't matter which route you've taken) and these big damage charms will be nice helpers.  As pointed out by Azhrah in the Inquisitor thread, the fighter does have access to a WP dest charm.

Either route is really fine - I don't think that any of them have HUGE advantages over the others that make one route seem silly by comparison.  My DK has taken the scout>rogue route and done just fine.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Retrospect on 20:30:11 - 01/01/09
So why are the people that have posted above stress the importance and usefulness of the charm: hastened head hits
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Azharh on 20:57:04 - 01/01/09
HHH has a huge drawback : EA are deadly if you fight against Inqui, because of Searing Mind  :'(
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Fallout on 21:23:04 - 01/01/09
Great thread.

I kind of wish I had gone scout for the hastened head hits...
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 22:35:06 - 01/01/09
Hastened Head Hit isn't vital.  We weren't emphasizing it to highlight its importance quite so much as noting that it is one of the more obvious differences between the two paths. It is one of the rare T1 charms which is never superceded and still has its uses even over level 40.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Slalderma on 02:14:19 - 01/02/09
I'll just reiterate that it's not so strong that the scout path should be considered the ONLY path.  Both are (to me) equally viable.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 13:18:32 - 01/07/09
I agree that both are viable as not every fight is based on being a spirit turtle. Merc's have better charms against spirit users, just due to that all the powerful rouges charms are -1 spirit.

I've been a DK for a few days, and I like using a few of the charms; Death Plate is very nice and Soul Feast is fantastic, but I am disapointed with Touch of Decay and eventually when I can use it Mind Cry. Touch of Decay is too low in damage and I seem to always draw it when my opponent uses a EA charm next, which just makes it useless unless you know the opponent is running no EA. This charm is mainly to be used against Beserkers, and most beserkers I have encounted use EA charms. And in a group fight, I want to kill/exhaust 1 opponent and then focus on the other/s, not using a 1 spirit charm with a small minus magic defense. Its probably more useful in guild battles, but i've not experienced them very much.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 18:19:16 - 01/08/09
I agree.  Touch of decay is mostly useful in PvE.   Everyone uses EA and that soaks up the penalty more often than not.  Even freaking Pyromaniacs are attacking me with Mach Fists.  So a big penalty to next melee is not very helpful.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 18:30:35 - 01/08/09
I am looking forward to Life Siphon.  I think heavy buffed racks of those could be extremely cool in PvP.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Slalderma on 19:56:22 - 01/08/09
I swear I've seen a Niz/Lep post that talks about what percentage of boost charms are applied to drain charms but I can't find it.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Azharh on 19:58:52 - 01/08/09
Here (http://forum.estiah.com/index.php?topic=256.0)

Quote
The effect of damage modifiers on drain attacks will now be reduced by 50%
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Lezard on 14:55:18 - 01/09/09
Except that damage modifiers are not applied to dots :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Azharh on 15:52:34 - 01/09/09
Yes, but they were talking about "Life Siphon"... "Dark Siphon", on the other hand, is a DoT and not affected by dmg mods... ;)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Lezard on 16:06:53 - 01/09/09
Heh, my bad.
50% is the right value though
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Slalderma on 16:26:34 - 01/09/09
Yes - we were discussing Life Siphon and the Deathknight Blade and the answer is quite clear.  Thanks.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 20:09:57 - 01/11/09
Quote
Deathknight: Damage of [Touch of Decay] increased by 7

Slightly more attractive for use in a melee deck now.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Slalderma on 03:16:06 - 01/12/09
Anyone have thoughts on KoNM fight two?  I don't think I've got the melee to take him all the way out, and I've tried a spirit route and got lucky once.  I can post a deck config if it'll help discussion.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Harii on 18:24:37 - 01/12/09
fight 2 was one of the biggest ap dumps for me
you probably don't want to go spirit until you can manage to get through and get your heirlooms/crowns though
you don't have to use just melee, any charm 55ish+ would go in my deck
my rogue did ok with some lucky draws on rogue poisons, my merc had more trouble since most of the decent damage charms kill your armor

re: mind cry
it isn't too bad for guild fights when you can stack a few heirlooms on it, and has potentialy very lucky draws to do massive hits
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 19:05:28 - 01/12/09
I found spirit useless in that fight, don't know whether it was just luck or not, but it never happened using spirit. A mixture of demonic wills, some bleeds and the rest pure melee worked for me.

The 3 fight was more irritating as I hadn't got enough group attacks to take down the healers and then to kill the main guy. I never really tried using boosts up to the amount of damage needed, but im guessing its possible.


I didn't try the king as I knew I would stand no chance at lvl 40 which things like magebane poison and more HP.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Slalderma on 05:11:51 - 01/13/09
Thanks for the suggestions guys - I got through fight two after jacking up the poison content.  It seemed counter-intuitive to use those against him but it worked well.  Fight three wasn't much of a problem, and I only have 3 Vicious Stabs.  I did have 10xHyphused weapons, 5xForbidden Vitamins, and 5xWard Repulsions, so that helps.  I also had 6 of the Rogue AoE charms.

Baralas was actually easier than I thought.  A lot of my alts have had real troubles with him but not so the DK - I had plenty of Magebanes and Footbinds, a good mix of armor and ward... Persistent Disease actually did nearly all my damage.  He was under 1000hp by the time the spirit boost hit.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Anubis1179 on 13:22:09 - 01/30/09
 Hello everyone, I am am new to the game and working on making my guy in to a DeathKnight. I am going Fighter>Merc>DeathKnight and was hoping that I could get some tips from you guys that know more them me. I am only level 24 right now so I still think of my self as a noob so any thing you have to say will be of help.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 16:33:29 - 01/30/09
Hello everyone, I am am new to the game and working on making my guy in to a DeathKnight. I am going Fighter>Merc>DeathKnight and was hoping that I could get some tips from you guys that know more them me. I am only level 24 right now so I still think of my self as a noob so any thing you have to say will be of help.


If you ask some specific questions we can be a bit more helpful.  For general advice I'd say start collecting spirit charms so you can build a deck and get used to how the spirit decks work.  Also, work on HP and Spi increasing skills, but that is pretty much good advice no matter what you play.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 16:52:58 - 01/30/09
I would agree with that, try to level spirit and learn how to use spirit charms effectively. I went against a lvl37 yesterday with my alt and he was using spirit charms that badly I laughed. Also, spend your time wisely by getting all the good spirit charms you can from dungeons.

Another thing as you're going via merc, is to focus heavily on dexterity after lvl 30, as you will need to switch focus from power to dexterity. Also even though I didn't, I would pick constitution as your reserve skill so you can use the axe mercenary charms as they will be pow/con, so you can use them straight away using your high power skill. If you pick intel, you wouldn't be able to use any fist charms untill you have 200+ intel, instead of ~150 con to use the axe charms.


But after all, its your style ;)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Anubis1179 on 18:02:49 - 01/30/09
Thanks for the replays!

I will start to work more on getting more spirit carms, asap. Right now I only have 5 carms in my deck that attack spirit, Dark Shakanite Sword. Right now I have an all swords melee deck, but I am starting to get the feeling that may not be a good idea.

I will have to work on my con or int big time since they are both vary low 65 and 80 respectively. Like I said I am a sad little noob who is trying to learn.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Ugluk on 20:31:12 - 01/30/09
Thanks for the replays!

I will start to work more on getting more spirit carms, asap. Right now I only have 5 carms in my deck that attack spirit, Dark Shakanite Sword. Right now I have an all swords melee deck, but I am starting to get the feeling that may not be a good idea.

I will have to work on my con or int big time since they are both vary low 65 and 80 respectively. Like I said I am a sad little noob who is trying to learn.

You basically want to max out your damage with whatever you put in your melee deck.  If you want to do spirit, that should be a separate deck.

Other advice.....extra actions are free damage.  Night Cloaks come from Escorting Chopley.  You will use those just as much a L49 as you do when you first get them, so get all 5.  Low-level Spirit stuff comes from the Wildhowl and Skyrift dungeons, as well as a couple weak ones from Tomb of Sheypar.  Also, you'll want to do PvP crafts for spirit, in addition to the swords.

Once you get higher in level you will absolutely, unquestionably, want all 5 power corruptions from the summoning altar, and all 5 Voodoo heads from the Underground Academy.  The rest I'll leave for you to find.  By then you'll have a better handle on what you need.

Last, make sure you make arena decks to level up side-skills and not just sword.  There are a few reasons for this.

1) If you get too far behind it takes a lot of AP and is very difficult to level the skills.
2) They give you stats that don't count towards your max growth.  You can only get up to 900 stat points from jobs and regular food.  After that you get 1 point per day from elixirs and whatever you can get from skills.

Fool around with your decks and find out what you like.  It's fun!
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 14:18:32 - 01/31/09
I would agree with most of the above, and I stress night cloak is as good at lvl 42 than it was at lvl 28 :]

I would disagree with needing x5 voodoo heads. Voodoo heads aren't that amazing unless you're facing a berserker/hierarch and hierarch's aren't in abundance and in my experience most of the berserkers run as little willpower as possible.


Also, anything 3 spirit or over is worth finding and collecting 5 of.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Almostfunny on 16:34:26 - 02/06/09
I'm a Deathknight-to-be and what I've been wondering about is the hybrid nature of the class. Deathknights are obviously a strong spirit class which makes me wonder how effective they are versus the melee/magic-specialist classes on their own turf.

I guess what I'm asking is this: Are the non-spirit Deathknight class charms sufficient to stand up to the real brawler classes? I'm assuming that the hybrid spirit/anything else deck will continue to be a rather bad idea but if I'm wrong about that I'd love to know it. :) What do you do to make your non-spirit deck stand up against a Pyro or Berserker? Thanks for the advice in advance!
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 16:37:20 - 02/06/09
Because of drain swords (the new Corrupted Felblade craft is just perfect for DKs) I see a lot of DKs holding up pretty well against the damage classes, especially if you toss in a few debuffs to the mix.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Ugluk on 16:44:00 - 02/06/09
Because of drain swords (the new Corrupted Felblade craft is just perfect for DKs) I see a lot of DKs holding up pretty well against the damage classes, especially if you toss in a few debuffs to the mix.

Yeah, corrupted fireblade adds to the fun.  Along with Blade of Betrayal.  Nothing like 86 damage to kick-start a burst deck.  You do have to use a little more finesse with a DK than a Zerker or Pyro.  You aren't really going to out-hit them so you need to keep those debuff swords in mind and drain like crazy.  You shouldn't have an issue getting full value on the drains, because any decent Zerker or Pyro will not be using armor or ward.  Also, Release Karma makes things fun, but everybody gets to use it.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 16:48:22 - 02/06/09
The drain charms are pretty much the basis of the DK melee strategy.  They keep you alive longer, which means it is worth exploiting constant boost over time charms to do more damage as the fight progresses.  The boosts also boost your drains, which feeds back into the cycle of keeping you alive longer.  As noted by Kasyn, a few debuffs in the deck, like Despair, help by hitting the bottom line of staying alive longer by depriving the enemy of ever increasing damage.  Big tonext buffs, like Superior Fury will occasionally come through by hitting right before a Life Siphon, to give you a big healing hit.  But the timing there is highly unreliable, so constant boost is essential.

Blue Dragon Bones and Forbidden Vitamins are worth serious consideration as ways to get more out of the Deathknight Blade.  Sometimes your Pyromancer opponents will help you out here by throwing you some free magic boost.  You can thank them by stealing more life force with your DK Blade.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 21:09:37 - 02/06/09
If only the drains weren't hit by a 50% penalty, DK would stand more of a chance.

No class has a chance of outhitting a berserker/pyro, so you have to compensate. You would need some serious luck with life drain and the DK blade to win straight off. Despair is good, but you need some luck to get them upfront and with others like feet bind and magebane if you want to run a successful debuff/melee strategy. Im unsure about running forbidden vitamin just for 1 charm, seems rather pointless.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 22:56:51 - 02/06/09
Vitamin would be something to consider instead of superior agility, since it buffs +10/+10.  Overall, I think vitamin probably isn't worth it with just DK Blades, but is probably better than superior agility when using both DK Blade and Corrupted Fireblade.   Then the Vitamins are helping 20 drain attacks (0/5DK blade, 5/5 Corrupted Fireblade, 5/0 Life Siphon), where your Sup Agility and Release Karma only help half of the drains.   This also makes Icy Winds worth thinking about.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 23:14:05 - 02/06/09
I think release karma beats everything atm, if you're playing a drain deck, having a boost and willpower can't be beat.

I've been trying to collect the materials for icy winds for this use. I could probably use a decent magic/dot deck with icy winds and a few other boosts as an alternative.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 23:55:41 - 02/06/09
Release Karma is indeed king.  I am now 1 Karma for 14 wins against Last Echo . >:( I now hate Wilrynn with the intensity of a thousand supernovas.   I'm long past earning the Cloud Chaser title and the evil random generator is still screwing me over with Side Effects and Moondrops.  Of course I'm also 0/14 on epics.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 00:23:59 - 02/07/09
I stopped counting at x20 tries at underground academy trying for voodoo heads and feet binds, only got 2 voodoo's and 4 feet binds :/ I've only just started on the last echo so I can't complain yet :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 02:03:26 - 02/07/09
If only the drains weren't hit by a 50% penalty, DK would stand more of a chance.

No class has a chance of outhitting a berserker/pyro, so you have to compensate. You would need some serious luck with life drain and the DK blade to win straight off. Despair is good, but you need some luck to get them upfront and with others like feet bind and magebane if you want to run a successful debuff/melee strategy. Im unsure about running forbidden vitamin just for 1 charm, seems rather pointless.

Drains were faaaaaaaaaaar too strong before the 50% drain penalty was added, I think any self-respecting DK would admit that.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 02:10:13 - 02/07/09
That was before our time as  DKs.  I recall seeing some old replays where insane amounts of life siphoning went back and forth between 2 DKs.  Then whammo, out came the justified nerf bat.  It might be a slight  overnerf, especially given the crazy damage raining down from bursters, but not its not too far off of where things should be. 
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 02:44:56 - 02/07/09
^^ I never saw it, but I do see massive bursting overpowerness so...

I would like to change my strategy from spirit to drain/powerup, to mix things up, but it won't happen as spirit is much more viable.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Hellmaster on 03:11:57 - 02/07/09
I saw with my own eyes how Machete killed Greydam with his pvp gear, thanks to the no-nerfed drains xD

Anyway, I just wanted to point out one thing, drain charms started being disbalanced when massive boosts were added to the game (Energy Wave mostly), never had a problem with them before that. Of course, the solution was good, because eventually more potent boost had to be introduced into the game.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 03:34:12 - 02/07/09
I saw with my own eyes how Machete killed Greydam with his pvp gear, thanks to the no-nerfed drains xD

Anyway, I just wanted to point out one thing, drain charms started being disbalanced when massive boosts were added to the game (Energy Wave mostly), never had a problem with them before that. Of course, the solution was good, because eventually more potent boost had to be introduced into the game.

Drain charms still had the problem of benefiting 200% from boosts (both the heal and the damage) before there were the charms to make it obvious to everyone that it was a problem.  The big boosts just brought attention to it, kind of like our first Yaxion kill pretty much ensured that ongoing + EA would be nerfed.  (And rightfully so.)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Hellmaster on 03:59:05 - 02/07/09
There are a lot of charms that benefit two or three times from buffs. The difference is that they benefit only from ongoing boosts, so for example Slash and Thrust, would never be affected 2 times by a Fury Potion. Drain charms did this, and that's why become overpowered.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 05:05:48 - 02/07/09
There are a lot of charms that benefit two or three times from buffs. The difference is that they benefit only from ongoing boosts, so for example Slash and Thrust, would never be affected 2 times by a Fury Potion. Drain charms did this, and that's why become overpowered.

Multihit charms are purposely designed to benefit twice from ongoing, things like drain and AoE were unintentional.  AoE used to benefit at 100% for to next boost and it was quickly nerfed.  EA used to benefit 100% from ongoing and it was nerfed.  Multihit and those situations are entirely different.  Anyhow, I'm not really sure we're disagreeing here, all I'm saying is that's not quite the same situation.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Almostfunny on 21:33:38 - 02/08/09
Just wanted to say thanks for the responses about melee strategy. It's nice to have some ideas for the time when I'll be fighting damage specialists using pure damage decks.  :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 20:24:12 - 02/16/09
As far as I can tell Corrupted Fireblade doesn't make a CPB deck that much more viable for Deathknights.  Basically ends up being a weaker set of Deathknight blades so vitamins and blue dragon bones are a little more useful, plus you get to drain a little more off of bonus giving pyros.   However, if you know you're fighting a pyro your charms are better spent on wards than magic buffs for your drains.  Cumulative ward charms like pyric charge and embroidered robes are much more reliable.  Cranking up your melee +ongoing with release karmas and getting a little more joy off life siphon in the process seems to work better as a general approach.   

Spirit or CPB are both sorta viable, but either will lose frequently to burst decks.  You just can't heal up enough with drains in the time given against a burst deck.

Corrupted fireblade has its uses, but it is not a game changer and is probably inferior to Impact in most 1v1 decks.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 20:59:17 - 02/16/09
Corrupted fireblade is not a game changer like release karma is. Fact

I don't think going on the drain/buff offensive is even worth the hassle as a DK in PvP, there are more classes with better class charms and better appropriate stats that will generally beat us, if both players are on top of their game. They're useful in the dungeons, but we want ego boosts and there are no ego boosts better than beating players in PvP (maybe epics get close, but not that close). I can't use the fireblade yet, but will probably buy it and use it, but using it in PvP, nope.

So I see the only competitive way is going spirit/turtle on everyone. Past lvl40, there isn't many spirit charms worth bothering with, alot are useless, some are worth it. Dark hierloom is the best as with power corruption, soul cry, soul drain etc, you can get some good spirit damage up, its a bit slow, but hey, im not gonna complain. Another good solid charm is Soul Harvest. If your opponent is using willpower, its as bad as using a lvl22 charm. If not, its like a weaker damaging version of soul drain, but as there are so few charms past lvl40, its a good gear filling charm.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Hellmaster on 00:58:42 - 02/17/09
Corrupted Fireblade is a good charm, it benefits x1.5 from ongoing boosts, and it heals you. It's kind of a Slash and Thrust, but changing raw power for healing. It's far better than DK Blade or Life Siphon. I use them even I'm not a DK, and they work very well for me.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 01:36:34 - 02/17/09
Yes but as a assassin, you don't have that many other options ;)

And i'd much rather have life siphon than it. A return of 90 against a bursting no armour using player, is one of the best.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 02:58:21 - 02/17/09
Corrupted Fireblade is a good charm, it benefits x1.5 from ongoing boosts, and it heals you. It's kind of a Slash and Thrust, but changing raw power for healing. It's far better than DK Blade or Life Siphon. I use them even I'm not a DK, and they work very well for me.
I'm failing to understand how its better.

Deathknight BladeLife SiphonCorrupted Fireblade
30 Melee (20% P)45 Melee drain25 Melee (20% P)
24 Magic drain16 Melee drain (20% P)
Requires Level 40[Requires Level 41Requires Level 44
Deathknight (R3)Deathknight (R3)460 Dex   403 Pow
Sword (R5)

To my eyes the one on the right is weaker than the left in every case but one.  That one is if you're fighting someone warded in which case you will get a piddling 3 more hit points, maybe a handful more under boost.  Life siphon is only one attack, so in a CPB with dual boosts its not as good, but its much harder to make a solid dual boost deck than a single boost deck unless you're an earth user, in which case you have the wrong stats for Fireblade.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 09:18:05 - 02/17/09
Fireblade is better than Life Siphon because it is a double hit, which gives it tons more damage potential than LS.

Fireblade is better than DK Blade because it's melee multihit, whereas DK blade splits melee and magic.  If you were to run with some ongoing melee boost in a drain setup (which would be optimal) the magic hit of the DK blade wouldn't be boosted.  It's limited this way in its damage potential, whereas CF is not.

IMO Fireblade is an extremely solid charm, and a worthy addition to 100% of any ongoing boost melee setups, and just about every other situation.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Hellmaster on 10:30:51 - 02/17/09
I think Kasyn explained it pretty well.

Gothmogged: Maybe you were confused and thought the draining part was magic, just like DK Blade.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 14:06:32 - 02/17/09
You are right, somehow I had a complete failure to notice that Fireblade wasn't split damage.  I think the name screwed with my head.  Fire + Blade.  Sounds like a split damage charm.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 22:26:22 - 03/03/09
Added Demoniac Deal to the class charm post.  2 spirit 18 melee drain if opponent's will is 0 over 5 turns.  So its been considerably toned down a bit from the proposed version people were crying OP about.   Now its better than Soul Harvest (2 level lower non-class) if you can keep their willpower down and they aren't armored.  If they get WP 3/5 turns its worse.  If they have 90+ armor, you only get 30 healing.   Looks to me like it would be quite difficult to use in a non-spirit deck unless you know the enemy has no willpower.  2 spirit isn't enough to break through any T3 WP charm.  So you'd need to mix in a fair amount something else doing WP destruction, which would seriously dilute your melee damage.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Ugluk on 22:55:26 - 03/03/09
Added Demoniac Deal to the class charm post.  2 spirit 18 melee drain if opponent's will is 0 over 5 turns.  So its been considerably toned down a bit from the proposed version people were crying OP about.   Now its better than Soul Harvest (2 level lower non-class) if you can keep their willpower down and they aren't armored.  If they get WP 3/5 turns its worse.  If they have 90+ armor, you only get 30 healing.   Looks to me like it would be quite difficult to use in a non-spirit deck unless you know the enemy has no willpower.  2 spirit isn't enough to break through any T3 WP charm.  So you'd need to mix in a fair amount something else doing WP destruction, which would seriously dilute your melee damage.

It's actually 36 damage if they have 90+ armor.  They wrote 30% by accident, but supposedly it actually runs at 40% as they mentioned in the DK charm thread.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 02:48:34 - 03/05/09
After way too much discussion Demoniac Deal ended up implemented as a charm even Nipal calls boring.  It manages not to really take on any of the scaling problems with spirit vs burst.  On a good draw it will negate 1 burster turn.   Design by committee and you get mediocrity.   Maybe less input next time from people who don't actually play the class.

poor dks got that boring 2spi+drain charm, they can solo yaxion with 5 copies of that but i personally find it totally uninteresting to play.

If the Yaxion comment were actually true I'd be a lot more excited about it.  The alternative had I think only one vocal fan, and it wasn't me.  At least they put the new dungeon right next to Eclis so we have a short walk and I can try out a few in coli tonight :)

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Earendil on 04:23:45 - 03/05/09
The alternative had I think only one vocal fan, and it wasn't me.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/3329269117_c083e2ae1f_o.jpg)
It was this guy.  I'm pretty sure.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 10:46:30 - 03/05/09
After way too much discussion Demoniac Deal ended up implemented as a charm even Nipal calls boring.  It manages not to really take on any of the scaling problems with spirit vs burst.  On a good draw it will negate 1 burster turn.   Design by committee and you get mediocrity.   Maybe less input next time from people who don't actually play the class.

I find it a little ridiculous to think that a charm or balance in general can be discussed 'too much'.  Additionally, the alternative was still quite a bit weaker in terms of potential AND it was split damage - the exact reason many DKs agreed that CF was better than DK Blade.  (Though the second charm suffers from being unboostable at all being a DoT, so it's a tradeoff.)  On top of that, to try to suggest that people who don't actually play DK (Unsure who you're targetting with that comment either, do you check everyone unfamiliar in a topic and make sure they are a DK?   Do you know everyone's alts?  More people than you assume may be DKs...) have no place in discussing the charm for the class is a little ridiculous.  I understand that people of the class in question are easily the ones that understand it best, but don't you also think the charm is in danger of becoming imba with a bunch of people that are basically only going to see the strongest possible option for their class?  You NEED discussion to figure things out better and fairer, and if the DKs know the class and what it needs well enough then there's no reason they wouldn't be in a better position to argue their side of it.

Anyhow, I'm going to wait and see how the charm works out in gears before judging completely (just as with the Inquisitor charm, despite my excitement I really can't tell 100% until I see it in action) so my concern is not with the charm so much at the moment as it is with some uncharacteristically bad things you seem to be expressing here.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 16:07:33 - 03/05/09
We ended up with a not terrible charm.  It seems clear that it is not overpowered and it remains an open question as to whether it is underpowered.  Where under/over powered should be considered in the context of L44 class charms overall.    That context was extremely difficult to arrive at without actual play testing.   What we didn't get, in either case for different reasons, was something new you could really design a deck around.  Which was what Nipal was driving at.

My impression is that the DK charm, in its various forms, got more discussion than the rest of the charms combined.  The result of all this attention is a charm that no one is screaming about.  No excited "yes yes yes"  no excited "OP OP OP".  Just some grumbling that maybe its not all that great.  Perhaps everyone is all screamed out.  Its replacing some non-class charms in my deck, we'll see how that goes.  It all leaves me with the feeling that the "everyone second guesses it" process does not produce greatness.

The less (or not at all) discussed charms get to just hit the game and enter play testing before being second guessed and possibly neutered. 
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Slalderma on 17:10:38 - 03/05/09
The alternative had I think only one vocal fan, and it wasn't me.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/3329269117_c083e2ae1f_o.jpg)
It was this guy.  I'm pretty sure.

Crotchety old jerk.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 17:24:20 - 03/05/09
Continuing in my crotchety old jerk mode here.  So far this charm is cursed to never be drawn.  Granted I only have 3 of them, but this is a little ridiculous. 

Out of 1v1 coliseum's 3 fights it was drawn 0 times.
2v2 coliseum didn't even go off (team full, but excluded)
Unsuccessful defense v Machete (this guy seems to follow me around and attack every day, dunno why because he's too high in level to even collect my bounty) drawn 0 times.  Doesn't really matter because it would have sucked vs his spirit deck anyway.

So my play testing data on this charm remains inconclusive.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Wolfsoul on 17:28:27 - 03/05/09
Yeah... you didn't use it versus me too >_> maybe it's not in gear?

edit after 5 skirmishes it finally dropped, right before RK :P
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 17:34:03 - 03/05/09
I checked that.  All three of them are in the gear listed at the top of each of 5 fights.  My gear losing on defense to an L46 berserker isn't really a surprise anyway.  I'll have 2 more tomorrow.  That should improve the draw odds.  Running a shorter deck would be suicidal v spirit. 

Still it is a remarkable streak of unluck.

Edit: At least it wasn't right after RK in a zerker deck.  But still funny. 

Edit2: Pinally got to see it in play when attacked by a melee deck featuring guardian angels, evil crushers, and glorious resolves.  Demoniac Deal was about as effective as soul harvest, perhaps slightly less, so I lost that one as I would have without them.  Meleers can pretty much ignore the new DK charm and proceed as usual.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 17:56:59 - 03/05/09
At least we didn't get the other charm, I wouldn't have even bought it to try it out. Neither of the charms was that special, the current one has more applications so I voted for it. It'll be good against magic bursters if you draw it early-ish, not good at all against berserkers.

Just got to get them now to test them out :]
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 09:07:59 - 03/10/09
I remain underwhelmed by demoniac deal.  In various matchups with a non-tailored deck my low expectations are being met, it is not much different from soul harvest (2 levels lower, not a class charm) on average.  The potential 90 drain healing is rarely achieved due to will, armor, or the fight not lasting long enough.

1.  pyros are still generally able to burst right beyond any healing from these charms.  If you're dead by charm 14, a 5 turn conditional drain is not really enough to tip the balance.
2.  berzerkers can laugh these off entirely.
3.  melee types with RK (everyone), or even worse RK + spears or other armor, can pretty much ignore these
4.  lame against spirit.
5.  slightly better than soul harvest vs the minority of decks which don't fit the previous categories.

My point here is that this charm has effectively no impact on PvP.  Anyone fighting a DK can use the exact same strategy they used before this charm.  Any DK with this charm can use it the same way they use soul harvest.  It makes some PvE a little easier, now you can run a lot of spirit+healing against things without much willpower or armor.  But the impact here is  negligible because any DK worth a damn was able to spirit all those things down without this charm. 

I can't say that Inquisitors got a better deal yet, I haven't really seen their stuff in action.  Nevertheless, they got two charms this patch.  A class charm, plus the effectively Inquisitor charm Aura of Darkness. 

Deathknights weren't really in need of a super charm, it was not an underpowered class, but I had hoped for something more interesting.  I still have a few ideas to explore with this charm, but I'm not optimistic about them redeeming it from mediocrity.

I will give kudos for Death Spin.  Now that is a cool charm usable by any spirit inclined players.  Its not overpowered, in fact its a serious mixed blessing by doing spirit, focus 3, and giving the foe an EA. It really weirds up the combat and makes group spirit fights more interesting.  I don't think its really doing much to make spirit more viable as a high level tactic, but it does make it more entertaining to watch.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 17:40:26 - 03/10/09
Funny thing.  If you keep the soul harvests and replace your earth dragon crowns with demoniac deals you end up with a much stronger deck.  So the key here is really quantity over quality, you can run 15 charms of spirit+healing which ends up being better than specific defenses for general purposes.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 18:11:03 - 03/10/09
Funny thing.  If you keep the soul harvests and replace your earth dragon crowns with demoniac deals you end up with a much stronger deck.  So the key here is really quantity over quality, you can run 15 charms of spirit+healing which ends up being better than specific defenses for general purposes.

That's a nice point - healing is just about always better than ward/armor. 

(I'm not sure calling Aura of Darkness an 'Inquisitor charm' is really appropriate - it's simply a spirit charm.  Inquisitors have no more willpower generation than DKs.)

You mentioned Death Spin - now wouldn't that have some synergy with DD?  You force another turn on the opponent which triggers another tick of the drain; if DD and Death Spin weren't already being used together in a 1v1 setup I'd be interested to see what your results were with it.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 19:15:59 - 03/10/09
Aura of darkness is more of an inquisitors charm than just a spirit one, due to the top end power requirements, but most DK's will be able to use it (eventually).

Forcing another move onto an opponent is ok, but a conditional 36 heal will never dislodge the potential amount of damage you could receive. In 1v1's, it just seems too favourable to the enemy over using a simple 3/4 spirit charm. In groups, its a spirit charm with focus, which is super rare, so its alot better.

Im gonna try it regardless, when I raise enough money to buy x5 DD :(
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Earendil on 03:25:44 - 03/11/09
Plus the drain is a buff - it goes off on your turn, not theirs.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 04:11:58 - 03/11/09
Plus the drain is a buff - it goes off on your turn, not theirs.

Oh is it?  Misunderstood then.

As you were.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 13:36:26 - 03/11/09
Time for the highest levelled DK to report in this thread, isn't it. ;)

Ok, after some testing (2-3 days with skirmish attacks against different kind of decks) with 4-5x of demonic deal in both spirit and two different kind of melee-based decks I can now state a few things. In advance, I had very low expectations about this charm, which was partially based on a false belief about mechanism - like Kasyn, I thought it was poison. Instead it is an aura, which is much better as it activates in your turn - after your attack - which makes it much more reliable (you have a chance to destroy opponent's willpower if they cast any in their turn, so unlike it doesn't automatically negates the drain). Too bad it isn't good enough to use with aura-buffing tricks (like Appeasing Balm)

And...

1. In spirit decks:
Against most non-spirit decks, it is decent. Not that powerful, but decent. It deals 2 spirit, and - depending on some factors - may "heal" up to 90. But:
- spirit damage of it isn't great. 2 spirit is the lower end of spirit charms on these levels, and it's rather a disadvantage in a serious spirit deck
- drain would be good, but there are 2 factors that can block it:
-- armor is one, and it seriously lowers the effectiveness. One armor is enough, and DD will end up with max 30-40 heal only. 2 spirit with 40 heal I consider quite medicore.
-- The other factor is willpower. Many high-level decks use those, mostly giving 4 or higher willpower at once. My experience shows that either you are running a thin spirit deck with high enough spirit damage to kill them as fast as possible (in which case 2 spirit with heal over time is a weak choice) or run a semi-defensive spirit deck, that has a good chance to pull out defense charms instead of spirit damage or willpower break. That often means the loss of drain for rounds, making this charm a really poor choice.
Against spirit decks, this charm is a clear disadvantage. Drain doesn't matter at all, the only really important things are spirit and willpower. This deals only 2 spirit, so - sad, but - it sucks.

2. In melee decks:
I've tried it in 2 different kind of melee decks - one in pure melee, one in melee/defense/buff combined (my most powerful one without doubt). In the pure melee deck it is very-very unreliable and too slow to consider it. Forgetting is better.
In the mixed deck it had some good moments, but without willpower breaking, it is not going to work against spirit decks or decks with any willpower. I've tried to add some Shatter Hope, and with that it was nice - sometimes ending up with the max 90 melee drain, which rocks - but on the other hand I had to run some questionably useful charms in the deck, and the whole deck became more unreliable. (I was considering Nightmare as well, but that also has its limits)
All in all, DD was either very good or was a waste of an action (or even - two actions due to Shatter Hope). In some cases it ended up giving great advantage, which is good, but I had to run some weaker charms only to make it useful. Further even that didn't help against some decks, or rather - it even lowered my chances against zerkers, spirit decks and such "arch-enemies".


Summarizing:

In a melee deck you'd rather forget it. You may build a deck around it, but there are far more reliable charms and tactics to go with. It did help against decks, that didn't run willpower, but I had no problem to win against them before anyway, so no major change there. On the other hand, against decks that caused some headache my chances were significantly lower, that made me discard this from the deck in the end. Further it isn't affected by melee buffs, so in many cases a single high-damage direct melee charm was better, than DD.

In a spirit deck it's quite situational. Lowers your chances against other spirit decks, otherwise about equal to Soul Feast. Comparing the two, I must say, rather Soul Feast than Demonic Deal. Yeah, the latter can "heal" more, but to my experience it heals rather around 40-60, and in that case I'd rather go with 1 higher spirit damage, which may save me from a 70-80hp hit in the end even.
The only situation Demonic deal really shines is GvG battles in a spirit party. There you rarely need to face willpower, which really makes it a "2 spirit, 30-90 heal" charm, which isn't that bad in the end.


All in all, I'm very disappointed with this charm, and not going to play it in the majority of my decks, except in party-spirit. Atm this charm I consider quite underpowered in the "highest level class-charm" slot (especially compared to other classes' new charms), and am quite sad that we ended up with this insead of the original suggestion (the 3 spirit, and split impromtu drain one).

However it could be made better in 3 ways imo:
- One way is to make it deal 3 spirit - even with the price of lowering the melee drain somewhat (like lowering it to 80). That'd make it worthwhile in most spirit decks, and could make it more reliable and considerable for a melee one.
- The other possible way is to make it destroy 1 willpower instead of drain, if opponent's willpower is over 0 (so it can't drain). Again, even with the price of lowering the damage (around 70), it'd make it far more reliable, hence better (and this'd also make it useful for melee decks)
- The third way is to lower and split the drain damage. Make it a 2 spirit charm, that deals 7 (40%) melee drain over 5 turns and another 8 (40%) if opponent's willpower is 0. It'd mean that you deal 2 spirit 35 melee drain over time anyway, and additional 40 melee drain conditionally.

Those would make it a "useful and worthy" instead of "overpowered in some situations, medicore in many situations and sucks in many situations".
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 23:45:19 - 03/11/09
I agree with Seth's analysis.  Our L44 charm is not living up to what we should expect of a charm at this level. Demoniac Deal being better Soul Harvest only under optimal conditions  for Deal doesn't qualify for the extra 2 levels and substantial expense.  Especially when those optimal conditions, no armor or will for 3 turns and you have 3+ turns left to live, cannot be created in a competitive deck under typical conditions.

I'll just reinforce one of those points.  The one PvP situation when you have a good chance of meeting the trigger conditions is when fighting a pyromaniac, but then you have so few turns to live that either you won't go 5 turns to get the 90, or doing 1 extra spirit with a 3 Spi card instead would have saved you at least that much damage (by turn 8 competitive pyro decks are averaging 90). If that is our best case PvP scenario for this charm then its really not a PvP charm.

[Edit] So far we're seeing Death Spins as a net loss.  For 3 focus you give them a free attack, so basically you lose 90 HP.  Black mark will give you that focus without the pain.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 16:14:16 - 03/14/09
I am also unimpressed with DD, i've been trying out with 3 in a deck against various classes, and unless i know for certain that they will have no armour, its not worth it at all. Im saving my money for something in the future that is actually worth the expense.

Deathspin is very poor, its almost like having a charm that says "4 spirit, -60 to -100 health", because that what it basically boils down to. We don't have any overtime debuffs bar magebane to play with, so there is no advantages for us at all.

Our best sword crafts are just as bleh aswell. Blade of Betrayal is roughly the same damage as a berserkers lvl40 charm without willpower and -10 health, so thats not worth it and the new charm sword/frost charm is utterly un-inventive and shocking against 1/2 the classes in the game. The damage is low and the debuff won't even block 1 attack. Corrupted fireblade is the only sword charm worth getting after lvl41, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.


I remember saying a while ago that im raising constitution to use some spear/axe charms, and I think that will still carry that on from now on, its just not worth raising dex/pow to use crappy charms that are far worse than other classes get.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 17:24:15 - 03/14/09

Our best sword crafts are just as bleh aswell. Blade of Betrayal is roughly the same damage as a berserkers lvl40 charm without willpower and -10 health, so thats not worth it and the new charm sword/frost charm is utterly un-inventive and shocking against 1/2 the classes in the game. The damage is low and the debuff won't even block 1 attack. Corrupted fireblade is the only sword charm worth getting after lvl41, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.


I remember saying a while ago that im raising constitution to use some spear/axe charms, and I think that will still carry that on from now on, its just not worth raising dex/pow to use crappy charms that are far worse than other classes get.
Corrupted Fireblade is good.  It might be the only good thing to happen to sword users in the last 4 patches.

If anyone has a positive spin to put on Blade of Betrayal, I'd like to hear it.  I've gathered all I need to make 5 of them, but haven't done so because I'm unconvinced that they're worth the money.   The 86 damage is really tempting, so I'll probably end up crafting them to at least try it out.

Frigid Damsel is Nightmare Blade without the ridiculous precondition.  NB's last rune must be debuff is EA incompatible and could only work in an almost pure damage debuff deck, which makes it basically unusable because fielding a competitive damage debuff deck is probably impossible.  Instead of a bad trigger condition, Damsel is saddled with a 331 CON prereq from its "frosty" nature.  I'm gonna drop 50 more points into a dump stat for this?  Well maybe I will, but if so my motive will be Slash and Thrust, one of the best weapons you can craft.

Lets consider a roughly equivalent weapon, in terms of level, with debuff that people actually use.

Evil Crusher (L43 59 damage, -3 to next spirit, 3000 gp).  Straight up mace prereqs.  Negates 1 attack.  Damage output 1 better than mithril.

Frigid Damsel (L44 46 melee -52 to next magic, 4000 gp ) : funky dump stat requirement, negates less than 1 attack (the l40 vendor charm major fire blast is 58 and that is about the weakest you'll see in a T3 magic deck), damage output is 5 less than mithril.  You read that correctly, this L44 dungeon craft doesn't even do T3 damage.

If you're a mace user who expects to fight spirit, Evil Crusher is a solid choice.   If you guess wrong, at least it is doing T3 damage. If you're a sword user expecting magic, well after you crank the heck out of your dump stat you'll have something you might use, but its a toss up.  If you guess wrong you're doing T2 (alloyed tellium) damage. 
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 17:54:48 - 03/14/09
Im pretty sure corrupted fireblade is used more by berserkers/warlords than deathknights, that shows how much we're forced into using spirit. I have NEVER seen a successful DK play melee/debuff.

Now I think of it, I look at my moderately successful 2v2 colliseum gear, im using 7 different lvl41+ charms, less than 45% of the charms are above lv41. I could use loads more, but they're that poor, it'd make me a hell of alot less successful. And im pretty sure I could replace 2-3 of them with lvl40 and below charms that are as good.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Tobliz on 23:38:34 - 03/14/09
First of all, Slash and Thrust is a drop, not a craft.  I had to run that place at least 2 dozen times to get 5 of them.  Respect.

Corrupted Fireblade is an amazing sword, and I wish there were more like it; quirky and unique without a ridiculous precondition to render it worthless (last charm played must be fire!).  I certainly hope that this is the direction they'll take swords.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 00:05:49 - 03/15/09
First of all, Slash and Thrust is a drop, not a craft.  I had to run that place at least 2 dozen times to get 5 of them.  Respect.

Corrupted Fireblade is an amazing sword, and I wish there were more like it; quirky and unique without a ridiculous precondition to render it worthless (last charm played must be fire!).  I certainly hope that this is the direction they'll take swords.

What you've said is all true, but thats the problem. We have 1 decent sword past lvl41, the rest are all a huge waste of time/ap, or just a complete waste of money for what they're (compared to other class charms). Every other class has at least 2 but most have more.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Errant on 00:28:09 - 03/15/09
What should stats look like when you hit max growth?
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Wolfsoul on 00:44:01 - 03/15/09
666 in all of them >_>
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kasyn on 01:28:06 - 03/15/09
A few things here.

- Sword itemization sucks, and everyone knows it.  If they increased the magic debuff by 20-30 on Frigid Damsel it would help quite a bit - the comparison to Evil Crusher is quite good and I'd like to see a change happen.  To be fair, swords still have it a lot better than other damage types.

- The past few patches have seen quite a bit of itemization that helps DKs, notably in the melee/drain strategy (which is IMO the best possible tactic for DKs) department.  RK, S&T (though restricted because of stats, but 330 is relatively low even for a dump), and the super amazing Corrupted Fireblade were all fantastic charms that helped you guys out moreso than many other classes.

- I'd hardly say DK has been forced to use spirit only - drain/melee has been pretty competitive for a while, even good enough to where I on my Inquisitor had a winning melee CBP drain setup with zero class charms of any kind.  DKs are well represented in top PvP comparitively, and from my experience it's not just with spirit gears.

- I've already given my responses to the Death Spin charm in the other topic, so I don't really need to necro it up in here.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 08:54:26 - 03/15/09
I wasn't arguing that DKs are underpowered.  I agree with Kasyn's points that we're competitive (it would be hypocritical for me to argue otherwise).  DKs are not the only sword users, if we make a wider variety of sword charms useful. it helps a wider array of melee users (even some of those annoying burstzerk jerks).   

Melee/drain works reasonably well in group battles.  I don't think its quite competitive with burst in PvP, but then nothing else is either.

One of my goals here is to help with charm, and possibly tactic, diversity.  It makes me sad to pick up charms and then never use them and never see them used.   It ends up being a waste of Lezard and Nipal's charm design work.

I see a sword like Frigid Damsel or Nightmare Blade and think "oh hey, maybe you could build a damage/debuff deck around these!".   But then I analyze them and and am sadly forced to conclude that they're too weak.  So back they go on the trash heap of neglected charms.

With respect to other weapons, hey they have their own forums and I heartily encourage people to undertake careful analysis to get other charm types some love and attention.  I'm not on the  Spear, Twinblade, or Lightning patrol, go forth and good luck on those people.

Finally, mea culpa SnT is a drop not a craft, but it is from the easy Harvester's Fight 1, so its not exactly a hard won item.  My summoner picked up a zillion of these trying to collect Fertile Earths from fight 2 (man the drop rate on those is ridiculously low, I have enough Spread Flames to burn the planet 3 times over).
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 16:34:29 - 03/15/09
I agree with most of the analysis here. Nightmare blade I always considered a bad joke, but I actually play some Frigid Damsel in my current deck. They aren't that bad, but quite medicore - and the rest 2 is filling some slots only until I can replace them with some blades of betrayal (spent my money on 5x Demonic Deals - at their current status, that was a waste of money).

About Blade of Betrayal I'm kinda surprised people don't respect it. It's a 86 for 10 damage - in worst case it's still a guaranteed net 76 damage melee charm, which isn't bad at all (eg. giantslayer is a net 69 damage, but not guaranteed as its bonus applies only to the next attack). Also if opponent is spirit or you use armor and they don't use melee damage (or just some low melee), it may become a net 82-86 damage, which is strong. Even Slash and Thrust needs 20-22 ongoing damage boost to catch up with that damage.

Another note that life siphon is one of the best pvp charms in a my melee/debuff deck.Which actually earned me 2 colisseum ranks so far. ;)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Tobliz on 17:28:56 - 03/15/09
Oh yeah, I use BoB all the time, but I'm just a warlord that likes big shiny weapons.  It's easy to have it hit for over 100, even moreso than SnT. 

(Also, it's pretty funny because I have a lot of Fertile Earths and like... 3 Spread Flames  :laugh:)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Ugluk on 17:02:38 - 03/16/09
About Blade of Betrayal I'm kinda surprised people don't respect it. It's a 86 for 10 damage - in worst case it's still a guaranteed net 76 damage melee charm, which isn't bad at all (eg. giantslayer is a net 69 damage, but not guaranteed as its bonus applies only to the next attack). Also if opponent is spirit or you use armor and they don't use melee damage (or just some low melee), it may become a net 82-86 damage, which is strong. Even Slash and Thrust needs 20-22 ongoing damage boost to catch up with that damage.

Absolutely this.  Think of it this way:  The Pryo's sigil is 76 damage AND it breaks focus.  The similar charm for pyros is Backdraft, and that's 83 damage for 30 life.  (Which is totally not worth it in virtually any situation.)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 21:40:09 - 03/16/09
So far my Blades of Betrayal are working out pretty well in coliseum.  I'm a convert.   At some point my allies are going to get really annoyed when I kill them by accident, but thats the risk you take. :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 18:00:31 - 03/17/09
Two interesting charm ideas I had again, that for some reason haven't showed up in the Contest charm ideas. I wonder what do you think, before I bring them to the Suggestion thread (well, unless Lez and Nip checks these forums as well, so it's not needed :) ):

1. One is staying on the life stealing track. I wondered why we couldn't combine a life stealing attack with built-in self-damage. (Eg. Life siphon or Corrupted blade-like attacks with hp loss to self) It could have higher base drain damage, while the built-in self-damage could guarantee that the high drain effect itself wouldn't become a too unbalanced factor. Depending on the armor it meets it could become very effective (in case of no armor), average or weaker (heavy armor) than a normal attack.
Eg. a sword that deals 60 (20%) melee drain with 15hp self-damage could result:
a) in case of no armor, it's a 60hp damage, (60-15=) 45hp heal
b) in case of 30 armor, it's a 36hp damage (with 30 armor destroyed), (36-15=) 21hp heal
c) in case of 60+ armor, it's a 10hp damage (with 60 armor destroyed), -5 hp loss to user.


2. A blade, that gives debuff to next attack over time, based on the total damage you have done.
Eg. a sword/sap charm:
- 48 (20%) melee
- for every 15 hp damage you done, give opponent -15 to next armor and ward, -1 to next spirit over 1 turn
Unlike other charms, the debuff value isn't changed (it's always -15, -1), but the length would be increased instead. So in case of 40 damage, it'd be -15, -15, -1 to next attack over 4 turns.


2b. Alternatively the latter charm could be made a tech charm instead (and we clearly lack tech charms, that combo with sword). Like:
Tech/Sap rune:
-15, -15, -1 to opponent's next attack each time you play a Sword rune in the next x (6-8) turns.

Naturally numbers are up for discussion. Or basically any elements of those ideas. :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Ugluk on 18:09:36 - 03/17/09
Both are good, though I'd rather not see any more soul-orb style charms such as 2b.  It'd be more fun to stack up a bunch of the ongoing debuffs to next though.  Penalty drain is great because then it can be boosted too!  I would guess that devs will balk at 60 (20%P) drain, but we can hope  :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 18:49:46 - 03/19/09
Both are good, though I'd rather not see any more soul-orb style charms such as 2b.  It'd be more fun to stack up a bunch of the ongoing debuffs to next though.  Penalty drain is great because then it can be boosted too!  I would guess that devs will balk at 60 (20%P) drain, but we can hope  :)

If it were Vampiric Sword: Melee drain 60 (20% P) and melee drain 15 (20%P) self, where the second drain is an attack on you granting HP to the foe,  you have a situation wherein if you hit a heavily armored enemy you net them a few HP of healing.  Weird, but a cool effect.

I think 2b has possibilities.  Putting together a strong nearly pure sword deck isn't so hard.  I'd be quite keen on this if EAs didn't chew up so much -tonext.  Maybe it would work better implemented as a poison, doing -8, -8, chance of -1 (or -1 only on first hit) for 3 turns?
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Valhamrakh on 12:06:29 - 04/07/09
I'm a Deathknight-to-be and I'm glad that a non-Spirit type strategy is viable. I'm been dreaming recently of running a Debuff/DoT gear once I hit the 40's. Stay alive long enough until the poisons wear my opponents down. I wouldn't expect it to be fully competitive, but it should be fun to play around with.
Or I could just go with the Debuff/Melee type strategy that's been discussed. Either way I'm just really excited about it.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 04:38:28 - 04/08/09
DoT is the sort of thing Inquisitors do better (Curse of Flesh), but the devs are continually adding new DoTs so there is certainly hope that debuff DoT might one day be viable.  I seriously doubt that it can be made competitive in a DK deck at L40, but I would enjoy being proved wrong.  The main problem is that there just isn't enough debuff.   Might be able to make it fly at L43 with Despair, but I'm not wildly optimistic because burst decks are really hitting on all cylinders at L43. 

From L40-L43 you can really do very well with spirit decks and have a few moments of glory with sword decks.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 14:44:32 - 04/08/09
From L40-L43 you can really do very well with spirit decks and have a few moments of glory with sword decks.
Dunno, if you talk about that 8 levels where I use(d) my melee deck efficiently... ^^

Otherwise yep, dot as main theme isn't that good for DK. On the other hand there are some great poisons that can be used to support your melee (or rarely magic) theme - eg. death sentence (but that one is extremely hard to find).
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 14:51:54 - 04/08/09
From L40-L43 you can really do very well with spirit decks and have a few moments of glory with sword decks.
Dunno, if you talk about that 8 levels where I use(d) my melee deck efficiently... ^^

Depends on various things.  I had the wrong dump stat (con) to use axes and spears so my melee deck was not what it could have been.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 15:21:46 - 04/08/09
I agree with Goth, alot more classes have better melee/magic attack than we have, but only really inquisitors are as good as us at spirit. Soul feast on its own simply makes a DK spirit deck alot more potent. I tried both deck types, and overall, the spirit one was far more dominant.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 15:40:53 - 04/08/09
Earlier I found my melee stronger than spirit, so I stayed with it in most of the time.

Of course I have a very wide selection of charms (including 5x death sentences eg, which is half of a life to get), and I don't have one dedicated dump stat, but always have had about equal int and con, so I could use almost all charms I wanted. But I agree that a good and competitive spirit gear is far easier to build, especially after reaching higher levels - where if you haven't done the bigmonster-party dungeons, you'll find your deck outdated very soon.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Valhamrakh on 10:51:44 - 04/22/09
So, I've been a Deathknight for about 2 weeks now, and have been using melee/debuff (with debuff making up around a fifth of my gear). I enjoy every minute of it. Touch of Decay works wonders, even though EA's make this a pet peeve (but that's what makes it exciting right?) I've added in a set of Lightning Spikes, Chromatic Helms and ongoing boosts (Night Cloaks, Hyphused weapons, etc). PVP wise, my gear does pretty okay. Once I obtain a full set of Life Siphons, things should start getting more interesting.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 14:05:21 - 04/22/09
Be welcome among us finally!

Life siphon you sure gonna like. It's a great charm. Imo actually the best non-spi charm of DK. ;)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Almostfunny on 18:11:30 - 04/22/09
I'm also a new Deathknight (hey Valhamrakh - seen you around in the pvp circuit!).

I've been enjoying the hell out of soul feast. I like the Deathknight blade but it seems a little ...off. Would it totally imbalance things if the magic drain had some pierce? Seth has told me that life siphon will more or less replace the DK blade when I get it, which is good but a little sad for what looks like the 'sigil' class charm for Deathknights.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 21:18:58 - 04/22/09
Corrupted Fireblade will eventually solve this issue for you.

Deathknight blade remains useful for a while when fighting pyromanics.  They give you free +next magic boost, so you might as well use it.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Glublok on 11:42:23 - 05/16/09
Hello everyone !

I would like to know which is the best way for a deathknight to kill his opponent, if having spirit charms is preferable, and which are the best charms of this category (even good charms which are not class charms but which are good for the DK too).
Because all the replies confuse me a bit in my comprehension as everyone give its opinion :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Ugluk on 16:27:06 - 05/18/09
Hello everyone !

I would like to know which is the best way for a deathknight to kill his opponent, if having spirit charms is preferable, and which are the best charms of this category (even good charms which are not class charms but which are good for the DK too).
Because all the replies confuse me a bit in my comprehension as everyone give its opinion :)

Not to be obtuse, but they are both the best way.  You can get a strong deck of either kind going if you farm out the good stuff. 

For spirit you want the class stuff plus soul harvest, dark heirloom, challenger's pressure, nightmare, hastened head hit (if you're a scout), voodoo head, shadow whisper, earth dragon crown, soul cry, power corruption, and some other stuff too.

For melee you want as many hyphused sets as you can use, corrupted fireblade, slash n thrust, class stuff, and any other constant power boost you can think of.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 10:20:11 - 05/23/09
For those fellow DKs, who don't visit all parts of the forums regularly:
http://forum.estiah.com/index.php?topic=2572.0 (http://forum.estiah.com/index.php?topic=2572.0)

New DK class charm, my complaints, Ugluk's good idea and such. ;)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 04:11:43 - 06/22/09
Stats:

Level28
Power169
Intellect121
Dexterity170
Constitution115
Spirit40
Hit Points418

How screwed am I?  I wanna hit DK at around 40-42.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 04:20:23 - 06/22/09
Not at all screwed at long as your t1 class is scout or fighter.  Meeting the reqs by 40 should be pretty straightforward as long as you work on pow/dex skills and the pow/dex jobs.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Errant on 19:16:25 - 06/25/09
Is that new DK charm in yet? I've been getting crests while skilling up leadership/defender but haven't seen anywhere to use them.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 20:26:39 - 06/25/09
You need to get the domination and salvation ones. 1-1 are used to craft the new DK crest.

You can find the shop by defeating the trial of transcendence in Lumina and look for more. ;)

It still doesn't verify for its cost, though not total crap anymore. Just a bit.  ^^
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 21:26:28 - 06/25/09
I can post the crest details up top.  Basically its DK Blade with more damage (so not that much more useful).   I've held off because common practice has been to keep the crest details less public.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 22:19:18 - 06/25/09
Let me add, that there's some piercing on it, which makes it far more useful than the DK blade. It's just a bit weird that with this it has much better rating against those with ward than those without defense.

On the up-side at least our complaints didn't find deaf ears - respect to the designers. We just still need to refine this. ;)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Derek on 15:51:22 - 06/27/09
They just came out with a split-damage twin blades card that's got 100% piercing on the magic component. IMO, that is the way Deathknight Crest should have moved.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Aplsos on 17:39:06 - 06/27/09
It is - the damage on the magic drain was lowered by two in exchange for 80% penetration.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 07:50:49 - 07/17/09
So, at Level 31, I'm at:
202 Pow and Dex
137 Con
142 Int

With Con as my dump stat, how much higher can I bring it without causing too much damage to myself?
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 14:38:29 - 07/17/09
Depends on what you want to do.  The two most accessible strategies for DK are spirit and melee.  If you only care about spirit you can dump both INT and CON heavily to get earlier access to the higher POW spirit charms in the mid 40s.  I can't really recommend that because I don't think its flexible enough.  It should be noted that the high POW spirit charms are DoTs, so keep an eye on whether the DOT mechanic revisions improves them in the next patch. 

If you want access to melee, then you'll find that axes (slash n thrust, welcome) are better than swords, maces and twinblades.  Which means you should dump INT instead of CON and having a super high DEX doesn't buy you much.

I recommend plotting your course to hit DK at L40.  The DK fun zone is L40-L43, so there is no sense in missing that.  You can bring up CON later.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Ugluk on 14:40:36 - 07/17/09
So, at Level 31, I'm at:
202 Pow and Dex
137 Con
142 Int

With Con as my dump stat, how much higher can I bring it without causing too much damage to myself?

1) Stop dumping con as a DK.  It's a really bad idea.  You need the axe stuff.
2) Even your 4th stat should be around 200 by L42/43
3) If you're on track to hit 504 Pow/Dex at L45 with about 350 Con (woohoo SnT) then you're fine.  Though SnT is L41, so as early as you want to get your Con in is all good.

EDIT: Like Goth said, getting the appropriate skills and primary stats to get DK right at L40 is far more important than Con though.  So make sure those will be there before you really put effort into the others.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Belial666 on 22:10:00 - 07/23/09
Well, hey guys,
I really need some help,
I'm trying to become a deathknight
I'm currently level 40 and only need 1 mark to finish all requirements
Can anyone tell me how to defeat the Trial of Salvation
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 23:10:30 - 07/23/09
The short answer is don't die.

Long answer is use debuff and healing to make sure that happens.  A really strong spirit deck is an alternate solution.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Belial666 on 23:24:48 - 07/23/09
The short answer is don't die.

Long answer is use debuff and healing to make sure that happens.  A really strong spirit deck is an alternate solution.
Thats salvation...
Domination is the one using spirits...
o.0...
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Tobliz on 23:25:59 - 07/23/09
You asked for salvation, not domination?
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Belial666 on 23:27:47 - 07/23/09
You asked for salvation, not domination?
my bad, i thought i had typed domination^^;; :-X
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Tobliz on 23:30:33 - 07/23/09
Fight fire with fire, basically.  Put up willpower, use spirit damage and fill out your deck.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 17:13:47 - 07/29/09
A Sword deck wins Coliseum?   Using Scorpion Stance?

http://www.estiah.com/pvp/coliseum/tournament/id/28055
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Matto on 21:52:40 - 07/29/09
Fight fire with fire, basically.  Put up willpower, use spirit damage and fill out your deck.

For Domination, if you have a 47-charm deck of all 3+ willpower charms, you can't lose.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 00:48:35 - 07/30/09
A Sword deck wins Coliseum?   Using Scorpion Stance?

http://www.estiah.com/pvp/coliseum/tournament/id/28055
Impressive, though you were lucky facing only melee opponents, where fencing shines. :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 03:02:14 - 07/30/09
Yeah its not a deck that wins much versus indirect damage or the newly upgraded magic CPB.

But it is a nifty proof of concept. 
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Errant on 20:54:23 - 08/22/09
I actually tend to do just fine against magic CPB and magic in general with my fencing/scorpion stance deck... its aura extension turtles (especially wardens with purge) and spirit that kicks my butt. Though I imagine spirit would be easier if I had the dex for mind disrupting swords or the money for fury of the elements.

Armor/ward turtles just wipe the floor with me, though. Either they kill me with ward projection while I try to break through their armor or they just wait me out without even using spirit. I'm running into a lot of decks with enough aura extension to keep stuff like moondrop water, golem heart and crystal stoneskin potions going for the entire match, with Bel'Hathels easily covering any dent I make in their armor. Makes me want to make a warden of my own ;)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 23:03:14 - 08/22/09
I actually tend to do just fine against magic CPB and magic in general with my fencing/scorpion stance deck... its aura extension turtles (especially wardens with purge) and spirit that kicks my butt. Though I imagine spirit would be easier if I had the dex for mind disrupting swords or the money for fury of the elements.

Armor/ward turtles just wipe the floor with me, though. Either they kill me with ward projection while I try to break through their armor or they just wait me out without even using spirit. I'm running into a lot of decks with enough aura extension to keep stuff like moondrop water, golem heart and crystal stoneskin potions going for the entire match, with Bel'Hathels easily covering any dent I make in their armor. Makes me want to make a warden of my own ;)

Without a sword that does aura reduction there is no way through those from a sword deck.   Perhaps some sort of Dispelling Blade that trashes auras and maybe summons.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Cornuthaum on 22:44:58 - 09/06/09
Hello!

I plan to, eventually in far-off months, to become a Deathknight.

I want to go Scout->Rogue->Deathknight, for all that sword-stabby goodness.

However, Nature saw it fit to make me a horrible, horrible min-maxer, so I'm wondering what my dump stat should be (Dex->Power->[Int/Cons]->[Cons/Int])...

And, on top of that, are there any charms along the way that I should really, really, really pick up? (not just for the time when I get to the point of being DK, but also for ease-of-slaying-horrible-beasties, that is, beating the dungeons on the way to lvl 40++).

Any help would be much appreciated :)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 23:37:04 - 09/06/09
First account?

The stat requirement is good in a sense that they are relatively close to each other, so picking POW over DEX or vice versa isn't much of a drawback.  This leaves you with more stat points that can go in either CON or INT, or both, like I am doing right now.

Anyway, the preferred dump stat is INT because CON is useful if you want to pick up certain Axe charms that'll help you out a lot in the future dungeons (Slash and Thrust (http://estiah.aswt.net/index.php?title=Slash_and_Thrust))
If you dump CON, you'll be able to use some Fire charms where magic is crucial, and since you already have the POW/DEX you need for Shadow charms, it can kick some ass too (:

Unfortunately for me, I realized that too late, and ended up being able to use all the Vita Banishment charms at Level 32, and now I don't have enough CON to do what I want.  But I'm handling fine, my guild squad is pwning, and I'm basically wandering around the PvP list as a Magic Merc.  x)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 00:43:19 - 09/07/09
Before the patch, I would've said go con, as swords suck, but with the new change in penetration variables, going with intel and getting twinblades could be alot more prolific.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Errant on 04:00:18 - 09/07/09
- Drains will now use 65% of damage modifiers, up from 50%.


:D
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 16:13:18 - 09/07/09
That's gotta favour us.  (:
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Errant on 21:56:21 - 09/23/09
Without a sword that does aura reduction there is no way through those from a sword deck.   Perhaps some sort of Dispelling Blade that trashes auras and maybe summons.

So, Joyeuse? Fits that bill perfectly, but at the same time, I dunno... it feels like its missing something. My fencing deck seems to have a lot of low damage + utility charms and not enough baseline hard hitting charms. Blade of Betrayal would fit the bill if not for the return damage getting boosted too.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 22:22:28 - 09/23/09
Without a sword that does aura reduction there is no way through those from a sword deck.   Perhaps some sort of Dispelling Blade that trashes auras and maybe summons.

So, Joyeuse? Fits that bill perfectly, but at the same time, I dunno... it feels like its missing something. My fencing deck seems to have a lot of low damage + utility charms and not enough baseline hard hitting charms. Blade of Betrayal would fit the bill if not for the return damage getting boosted too.

Yay, Joyeuse has mediocre damage combined with mediocre aura reduction.  I'm collecting them, but am not particularly optimistic about them solving the indirect aura deck problem.  It doesn't take much forcefield to shut down a sword deck.  Severing slicers not having sword rune means you still have no shot at a summoner deck.  You can't debuff everything. If you try you'll fail against everything.  This is the fundamental weakness of debuff tactics, they are too dependent on the enemy deck.

On a sort of related note, there simply isn't enough debuff available to shut down a multihit incandescence deck.  You can fill up on ward, frigid damsels, void cloaks, despairs, and magebane poisons and still get clocked out by accumulated penetration hits capped off by >200 damage multihits.  So in addition to indirect decks, sword cpb also can't complete with magic cpb.  Sword decks really only works decently against melee cpb.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Hellmaster on 00:46:03 - 09/24/09
Just wanted to note that, even though I'm not a DK nor trying to do a sword deck, I have all this problems with aura,summon or magic cpb decks. So I think this problems are general to all melee users that are not cpb->double hit.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Merton on 01:10:42 - 09/24/09
Multi hit magic gears rape even my best performers unless I'm lucky.  My zerk lost to one on fight 58 of his Bunny God Mode run yesterday  :(
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Wolfsoul on 05:16:29 - 09/26/09
(http://i35.tinypic.com/161174w.jpg)
truth is revealed
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 06:30:19 - 09/30/09
Multi hit magic gears rape even my best performers unless I'm lucky.  My zerk lost to one on fight 58 of his Bunny God Mode run yesterday  :(

Mystery to me is that when they nerfed Decoy in 1v1 they gave it a good and proper nerfing.  When they went after Incandescence, the single highest CPB buff in the game, they only made it less good for frost users.  It has no drawback at all for 1v lightning and fire decks.  If they aren't going to give that thing a real drawback (like Release Karma has), they could at least put in a charm that can counter it for those of us without access to class based purge and normalize.



Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Aplsos on 07:28:30 - 09/30/09
Yeah, I think making it work somewhat similar to my suggestion for Decoy (+16 ongoing, and an extra +5 if you're protecting) would be more effective than the anti-frost curse.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Errant on 09:38:54 - 11/02/09
Seen anything useful for our spirit or swords themes so far this patch? Theres that new sword/spirit 3 spirit craft in Triland, but I have lots of 3 spirit charms already, and they don't take 620 dex >.> They really need to start putting out 4 spirit charms... at 3 spirit/turn it takes ~17 rounds to run someone out of spirit... people easily blow through my 1050 hp in 14 or less.

'course, we won't see any because of inquisitors and their 5(or higher)spi charms. =/
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 13:06:34 - 11/02/09
I haven't seen anything compelling for either deck type in this patch.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Manores on 13:13:27 - 11/02/09
'course, we won't see any because of inquisitors and their 5(or higher)spi charms. =/

Hey, we are on the same boat here! INQ's are your friends, bitch about 7 WP maces plz, thx.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Bedtime on 18:12:27 - 11/02/09
Spirit wise, I think ritual mask has promise, but its another 'low' stat spirit charm that everyone can use :/

The new sword/spirit is a complete waste, a charm to counter strategies we're already good against is pointless imho. Also summons are not counted a defensive rune, so it seems wasteful to include it if a summoners only support charm is star gauntlets.

Sword wise, the only melee version i've seen is blacksong sword, that is horrific for a lvl47 charm. Assuming you're against 4 enemies, its a maximum 47 melee (20% P), -80 to targets next magic and -4 to next spirit. Seeing as frigid damsel is 46 Melee (20% P) and -52 to target's next magic, how this is 3 levels higher with a conditional debuff... Im just lost on how this is worth using in any situation.


I've just given up on running a DK themed deck, much better strategies outside the class strategies.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Vwraith on 17:57:45 - 11/11/09
Gothmogged, as you're now a DeathKnight, should the second post be used to create a list of useful charms?
As Deathknights have a degree of versatility the layout could be organised into 3 collumns, 1st for Spirit, 2nd for Melee and 3rd for Magic?

                                                        Useful Charms

Corrupted Fireblade
   
Mind Blast
   
Ice Spikes
Fee:8000g    Fee:1360g    Found:A Cure
Materials(x1):
Pheonix Ash x1
   Materials(x1):
Stormeye Brooch x1
Golden Basilisk Scale x1
   Quest:
A Cure (Fight 2,3)



Corrupted Fireblade    Mind Blast    Ice Spikes
25 Melee (20% P)    5 Spirit    9 Magic (38% P)
16 Melee drain (20% P)    Stunned for 1 action    9 Magic (38% P)
               9 Magic (38% P)
Level 44    Level 34    Level 42



Comment on charm here    Comment on charm here    Comment on charm here
   
A comprehensive list of useful charms would be great for other upcoming DeathKnights.
A comprehensive list as useful and comprehensive as say, This guide (http://www.cracked.com/blog/so-you-need-to-disarm-a-chimpanzee/).
(I'll get around to fixing the Gap between Green and Red writing soon.
EDIT 2: Yes, I'll also fix that attractive looking Mind Blast)

FIX'D.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 18:37:53 - 11/11/09
I didn't know there was demand for more detail. I'll work on a useful charms post tonight.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Errant on 19:06:55 - 11/11/09
Too bad those aren't Mind Blast's actual stats =/

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Darian on 19:40:51 - 11/11/09
I was going to say... that charm looks too good to be true. :D
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Zenetar on 20:12:10 - 11/11/09
Here's the info if somebody needs it.
Mind Blast
From Estiah Wiki - Now Officially the Unofficial Official Wiki
    * 5 Spirit
    * Stunned for 1 action
Requirements
    * Level 34
    * 200 Dex
    * 200 Pow
    * Spirit Breaker (R3)
Crafted in Zeal exploration site Palace of the Essence:
    * x1 Stormeye Brooch
    * x1 Golden Basilisk Scale
    * Fee: 1360 gold
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Vwraith on 23:03:18 - 11/11/09
The charm information isn't hard to do, It's editting the table itself to be right that's hard.  :P
All we need now are the charms themselves! Voodoo Head, Drug Inhibitors, Luminous ideas, etc.
Edit: Maybe just doing the usefull charms in groups of type, instead of 3 columns may be easier to use.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 06:34:22 - 11/13/09
I updated 2nd post.  Decided not to go with the big table of charms and an exhaustive listing.  You can pretty much get that off the wiki.  Instead I'm going for the important charms and some basic analysis.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Errant on 08:55:15 - 11/16/09
Heh, I use almost that exact bane deck setup for picking on inquisitors. Along with golem hearts and crowns of prestige and mind-disrupting blades.

And here I thought I was being original. =/


Bane extension + mind-disrupting blades is a cruel and painful thing to put an inquisitor through :3
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Curyos on 17:02:55 - 12/08/09
I'm currently level 46 with these stats:
Dex 518
Power 450
Con 356
Int 355

Currently my plan is to get Dex/Power up to 556/487 for celestial sword, then build up the other stats.  Are there other key charms that would make building up Dex and Power beyond that level a higher priority?  Other comments?  I have ~240 job growth left, so it's not impossible to change the stat distribution significantly.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Slalderma on 18:04:42 - 12/08/09
Highest (pure) spirit charms are 522/522 dex/pow.  Need to consider those.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Aurones on 12:39:30 - 12/14/09
Hi, i want to create a deathknight and for now i´m lvl 10 i was reading a lot about deathknights and need some help:
the stats must be in order os priority dex-pow-int-con.
The charms to use must be swords-shadow-spirit and some axes.

It´s that right or not? if not please tell me.

Thanks.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 16:46:47 - 12/14/09
You've got it basically right.  However you shouldn't overspecialize your access to other runes.  You will need to rank up the others for PvE, so don't completely ignore everything else.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seasonaltnt on 21:18:43 - 12/14/09
At Level 40, your stat priorities should most likely be Dex>Pow>other two.  However, soon after, you may want to raise Pow or Con higher, depending on which charms you want to use.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Delmania on 16:23:24 - 02/23/10
What are some good coliseum charms and strategies to employ?  I've been trying to run a spirit deck, but I never seem to be successful.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Dollstate on 19:06:41 - 02/23/10
What are some good coliseum charms and strategies to employ?  I've been trying to run a spirit deck, but I never seem to be successful.

Some DKs use Scorpion Stance and/or Fencing.  

You can also do melee CPB with drains (EDIT:  Life Siphon, Corrupted Fireblade), multihits (EDIT:  Slash&Thrust), and a few EAs.  


.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Morthalius on 20:39:22 - 02/23/10
and the strategies available to most other people as well.
Sometimes I use a melee bane gear.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Shadyguy1 on 00:30:22 - 03/12/10
How does a straight Melee CPB work for Deathknights (for PvP). I can run 2 or 3 sets of Hyphused, Night Cloaks, Slash and Thrust, Corrupted Fireblades, and some other random melee like Frigid Damsels and Life Siphon.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Curyos on 03:31:41 - 03/12/10
How does a straight Melee CPB work for Deathknights (for PvP). I can run 2 or 3 sets of Hyphused, Night Cloaks, Slash and Thrust, Corrupted Fireblades, and some other random melee like Frigid Damsels and Life Siphon.

Fencing (and sometimes scorpion stance) is what pulls it all together for the deathknight.  See Post 2 in this thread by Gothmogged for other useful charms.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Morthalius on 05:26:02 - 03/12/10
How does a straight Melee CPB work for Deathknights (for PvP). I can run 2 or 3 sets of Hyphused, Night Cloaks, Slash and Thrust, Corrupted Fireblades, and some other random melee like Frigid Damsels and Life Siphon.

Fencing (and sometimes scorpion stance) is what pulls it all together for the deathknight.  See Post 2 in this thread by Gothmogged for other useful charms.

Honestly I've not been impressed with it in the least, it does fine against melee, you still get out DPSed against pyros, and its fairly weak to spirit. :/
I've honestly had more success doing odd things than I have with what are supposed to be the DK's strengths.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 06:50:04 - 03/12/10
Fencing decks can be reasonably good against spirit and melee cpb.  They're basically a hybrid cpb/debuff deck.  They have little for indirect decks or magic.  Before the recent wave of aura and delayed bane boosts, spirit and melee was most of what you would face, so they did ok.  Deck diversity is good for the metagame, but not good for debuff decks.  

You cannot try to debuff everything and win against anything.  This is the fundamental tactical weakness of debuff.  Debuff does not work on your deck, it works against the enemy's deck, and there are too many kinds of enemy decks for this to be a general purpose path to victory.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Morthalius on 18:39:55 - 03/12/10
Fencing decks can be reasonably good against spirit and melee cpb.  They're basically a hybrid cpb/debuff deck.  They have little for indirect decks or magic.  Before the recent wave of aura and delayed bane boosts, spirit and melee was most of what you would face, so they did ok.  Deck diversity is good for the metagame, but not good for debuff decks. 

You cannot try to debuff everything and win against anything.  This is the fundamental tactical weakness debuff.  Debuff does not work on your deck, it works against the enemy's deck, and there are too many kinds of enemy decks for this to be a general purpose path to victory.


Not to mention in the case of fencing you're dependent on that charm pulling and pulling relatively early. At least before the lvl 50 sword epic, I can't comment on it then.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Almostfunny on 14:06:31 - 03/19/10
Fencing can work quite well when you combine it with drain. When you add Fencing to Life Siphon and Corrupted Fireblade you can often make up for DK's less-than-stellar melee damage rate by stealing enemy hit points. Since the idea is to depend on the positive CPB you get from fencing rather than the debuff effect from it you aren't quite as dependent on the opp. strategy. Occasionally crippling melee users is also nice.

I have mixed feelings about scorpion stance. I used it for a good while but by the upper L40's it just wasn't up to snuff. I think it often did little more than slow my deck down. It doesn't usually debuff enough to keep you alive. Sure there are times when you draw your debuff auras at the beginning of a fight and then watch your opponent struggle to do any damage at all but for every time this happens it will kill your fight's momentum several other times. It's a dead draw vs. anything but direct damage. I'm not a huge fan of the to-next debuff on melee users anyway; I have no idea how many times I'd see 2-3 scorpion stance auras be shrugged off by melee EA.

Swords are in pretty good shape right now IMO - you won't run everybody into the ground but you can be pretty competitive. As Gothmogged said, you absolutely cannot expect to debuff everybody. Your deck has to defeat the enemy. I see debuffs as a way to extend your lifespan so you can finish the fight.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Morthalius on 18:06:50 - 03/19/10
Fencing can work quite well when you combine it with drain. When you add Fencing to Life Siphon and Corrupted Fireblade you can often make up for DK's less-than-stellar melee damage rate by stealing enemy hit points. Since the idea is to depend on the positive CPB you get from fencing rather than the debuff effect from it you aren't quite as dependent on the opp. strategy. Occasionally crippling melee users is also nice.

I have mixed feelings about scorpion stance. I used it for a good while but by the upper L40's it just wasn't up to snuff. I think it often did little more than slow my deck down. It doesn't usually debuff enough to keep you alive. Sure there are times when you draw your debuff auras at the beginning of a fight and then watch your opponent struggle to do any damage at all but for every time this happens it will kill your fight's momentum several other times. It's a dead draw vs. anything but direct damage. I'm not a huge fan of the to-next debuff on melee users anyway; I have no idea how many times I'd see 2-3 scorpion stance auras be shrugged off by melee EA.

Swords are in pretty good shape right now IMO - you won't run everybody into the ground but you can be pretty competitive. As Gothmogged said, you absolutely cannot expect to debuff everybody. Your deck has to defeat the enemy. I see debuffs as a way to extend your lifespan so you can finish the fight.

Maybe the rng hates me, but a fencing gear is heavily dependent on five charms pulling, five charms in a 63 spirit+ gear is a bit of a stretch. It's hard to win say a coliseum, where you have to hope it pulls early 3 times, I assume hilt of saiph helps a bit with this since it at least brings a good debuff charm to the table making it more akin to 10 charms with it's ability to prolong a fight. I've just found that thusfar (prior to lvl 50) alternative means work a lot better for me than the standard fencing gear.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Almostfunny on 18:50:50 - 03/19/10
Looking back over the discussion I see that we are indeed talking about coliseum strategies, which I hadn't noticed for some reason.

I've seen others use fencing in coli successfully but I've almost always run spirit. Coliseum is a bit of a different beast than standard pvp, or at least it is in my mind, because many people over-tune their decks and fall more easily to spirit. In that light you're working against tuned melee decks which does put fencing decks at a bit of a disadvantage IMO.

I don't have any math to back this up and like I said, I've seen good fencing decks in the coliseum; just haven't personally shared in their success. Hilt of Saiph is an excellent charm but won't turn the tide against a strong melee CPB deck all by itself (well, unless you hit your opponent with 2-3 Hilt of Saiph and then he spams EA, etc.).
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 18:55:37 - 03/19/10
Fencing with Hilt is definitely more reliable.  Without the hilts you have to mix in a lot stuff to get something reliable.  Hilts don't solve the fundamental problem of being a hybrid debuff/cpb deck, so don't expect to take over the world once you get them.  

If green pebbles were as common as ruby and amber I'd have something to say about Lesath at this point. As it is I'm still at least 16 pebbles short.  I'm currently debating whether to buy my fifth hilt or start crafting Lesath's now.  The hilt since has dual use in fencing and bane decks., but Lesath would be a shiny new toy.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Seth on 22:56:04 - 03/22/10
If green pebbles were as common as ruby and amber I'd have something to say about Lesath at this point. As it is I'm still at least 16 pebbles short.  I'm currently debating whether to buy my fifth hilt...
And I can't tell you how jealous I am. They just refuse to drop, no matter where I look for them.  >:(
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 23:05:10 - 03/22/10
If green pebbles were as common as ruby and amber I'd have something to say about Lesath at this point. As it is I'm still at least 16 pebbles short.  I'm currently debating whether to buy my fifth hilt...
And I can't tell you how jealous I am. They just refuse to drop, no matter where I look for them.  >:(

I get most of my pebbles from the statues, but I also pickup some from coliseum, pvp, and basically anyplace that can drop a pebble.  Haven't done much gathering for tiny emeralds, pretty much because gathering is just so damn boring.  I picked up 2 at the end of last week from pvp (way over 200 inquisitors down now).

Just crafted last hilt and first lesath.  Can't really build a deck around 1 lesath, so for now its only home is in my 2v.  Naturally it was drawn in 0:3 fights this morning's coliseum because the RNG is a fickle bitch.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Lancaster on 05:04:06 - 04/30/10
The pact is sealed...
I have become a DK from now on, my honor to be a part of the Hall of Sacrifices!
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Rescenin on 20:41:37 - 08/01/10
The pact is sealed...
I have become a DK from now on, my honor to be a part of the Hall of Sacrifices!
Welcome, debuffer.  ;D
********************
There was a time in coli, Shadesong used lots of debuffs and [Blightwood Blade], it could creat +500 damage in +/- 40 turns.
Nice idea lol. It's very suited with [Despair].
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Zenetar on 20:51:12 - 08/01/10
Quote
+/- 40 turns
that's really huge.
you rely only on debuff in this deck.

Basically this deck beats most melee/magic users, buf fails everytime to banes, aura, projections and spirit.

not so good overall.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Rescenin on 21:58:35 - 08/01/10
Quote
+/- 40 turns
that's really huge.
you rely only on debuff in this deck.

Basically this deck beats most melee/magic users, buf fails everytime to banes, aura, projections and spirit.

not so good overall.
Yes, but that is melee drain too, lol. Damage and self-healing. (http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/Rescenin/bazekcfq.gif)
Because of self-healing too, bane is not a worry, yeah, depends on RNG too,
[Crimson Fury Potion]+[Life Siphon] is nice combo instant healer, [Corrupted Fireblade] needs CPB.
Every class has each weaknesses.
I see rarely too that player uses projection.
My David vs Goliath achievement too was successful with using spirits deck.
Quote
http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/24470632/owner/38275

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Zenetar on 22:04:35 - 08/01/10
Almost all Davids are winners vs terrible lowbies.

What I tried to point out, that Blightwood Blade deck can win only vs a direct damage deck, a deck that can be 'debuffed'
other than that, it's almost an autolose.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Rescenin on 10:37:57 - 08/02/10
Almost all Davids are winners vs terrible lowbies.

What I tried to point out, that Blightwood Blade deck can win only vs a direct damage deck, a deck that can be 'debuffed'
other than that, it's almost an autolose.
Here is the replay, it was perfect 40 turn, lol, don't mind [Earth Dragon Crown], because RNG sucks:
Quote
http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/coliseum/110999/id/776992 (http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/coliseum/110999/id/776992)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Zenetar on 10:52:33 - 08/02/10
your spirit deck is pretty bad for lvl 45, that's all.
or you just got very unlucky.

next fight of Shadesong in the bracket
Quote
:
Nyquist uses [Face Melt]
Shadesong takes 0 spirit damage (3 resisted)
Shadesong takes 4 spirit damage

Shadesong collapses of exhaustion.

** Battle status **
Nyquist : 768/892 HP, 0 Armor, 88 Ward, 7 Willpower, 41/57 Charm(s) left
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gtxinsane on 11:21:44 - 08/02/10
Almost all Davids are winners vs terrible lowbies.


I beg to differ.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Rescenin on 11:41:36 - 08/02/10
your spirit deck is pretty bad for lvl 45, that's all.
or you just got very unlucky.

next fight of Shadesong in the bracket
Quote
:
Nyquist uses [Face Melt]
Shadesong takes 0 spirit damage (3 resisted)
Shadesong takes 4 spirit damage

Shadesong collapses of exhaustion.

** Battle status **
Nyquist : 768/892 HP, 0 Armor, 88 Ward, 7 Willpower, 41/57 Charm(s) left
Yeah, I have said in the first place, don't mind [Earth Dragon Crown], because RNG sucks.
I used [Chromatic Boots] and [Death Plate] because of preparing fighting vs Inquisitor.
How could I fight with someone 1 lvl higher than me in 1st stage?
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Zenetar on 11:55:41 - 08/02/10
Quote
How could I fight with someone 1 lvl higher than me in 1st stage?
that's usual, because not every player has a slot in its level bracket, so he/she is moved one level higher/lower.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Rescenin on 17:46:07 - 08/11/10
Did anyone feel [Shatter Hope] is a kind of useless charm?
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Zenetar on 18:16:10 - 08/11/10
I'm gonna share a secret with you - most of DK's class charms suck
Shatter Hope isn't an exception.

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Kaervaak on 19:04:52 - 08/11/10
Yep only charms i ever use are life siphon and despair (and despair only in blightwood blade PVE decks)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 19:55:27 - 08/11/10
The indisputable awesomeness of DK charms is one of the reasons why I'm currently assembling a frost deck.


ps. don't overlook Mind Cry, it still has its place in GvG.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Rescenin on 08:22:15 - 08/12/10
Hhe, so my feeling is not different from others, after all.  :-X
Its stats should be:
Destroy 2 willpower
-4 to target's next spirit
-70 to target's next melee
-70 to target's next magic
That would be enough to shatter opponent's hope.  ;D

Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 00:44:18 - 09/16/10
Your complaint about Shatter Hope doesn't fall on deaf ears.  Some class charms aren't even worth using at level and DK has more than its fair share (e.g Touch of Decay).  

As an exercise in some depressing navel gazing, here we have the class blurb:

Quote
Deathknights are the true sword masters, their blades are imbued by terrible demonic power capable of draining the opponent's life force. Retaining your sanity in the presence of one is not an easy task, for they will shatter your very will to fight.

It promises a lot of badassery which is not delivered in the long term.  You get a few levels of fun ride, but even I had to give up on sword decks in end game after blood pact was introduced, and I pioneered the form.  So that pretty much castrates the first sentence.  Which just leaves the second one, which is presumably a reference to spirit/debuff.  Mind Cry is probably the only spirit class charm (and DK class charm period) you'll still use with any regularity after level 49, and debuff is very weak in end game aside from occasionally punking people with Despair enhanced Blightwood decks.  The latter tactic only works when you can count on a decent chance of hitting a direct damage deck that isn't self normalizing.  The frequency of those diminishes substantially at 50.

End game is pretty much all about learning to cope once your class charms lose their lustre.  The hidden advantage of Deathknight at that point is that you had to learn those coping skills starting at level 44, so you're ahead of the crowd, and unlike those sad faced paladins, you have the leg up of being dex/pow primary.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Rescenin on 08:17:34 - 09/16/10
Ya, I do realize now because of your explanation. that class charm is fun (helpful) enough for earlier level.  ;)
At least [Shatter Hope] is helpful as willpower destroyer than [Cataclysm] for e.g. Last Echo of the Thunder.
It's so much fun to use AoE Spirit Short Deck. Thanx to [Mind Cry]  :laugh:
[Blightwood Talisman]+[Dark Heirloom]+[Psychic Cry]+[Mind Cry].
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Generic on 04:33:32 - 12/21/10
SOMEONE POST THE DAMN NEW DK CHARMS OR SOMETHING
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Srdja on 07:07:59 - 12/21/10
Feeding Off the Weak
Aura: +2 to melee and magic (ongoing) if target has negative ongoing melee modifiers during 6 turns
[For each negative ongoing melee damage modifier on target]
1 Melee drain
3 Ward (cumul)

Lobotomize
Bane: 5 magic drain (40% P) during 5 turns
36 Melee (20% P)
Destroy 3 willpower
[If target's Spirit is 18 or below]
4 Spirit

There you go. I personally think they're both quite nice.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Generic on 15:44:04 - 12/21/10
they are indeed.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Ozzilla on 08:29:25 - 02/17/11
Thanks for the replays!

I will start to work more on getting more spirit carms, asap. Right now I only have 5 carms in my deck that attack spirit, Dark Shakanite Sword. Right now I have an all swords melee deck, but I am starting to get the feeling that may not be a good idea.

I will have to work on my con or int big time since they are both vary low 65 and 80 respectively. Like I said I am a sad little noob who is trying to learn.

Reading the forums and heard there was a benefit from finding typo's knew this was going to be very difficult being that this game came out  a rather long time ago for an MMO... I seen a typo before but didn't mentioned it, but since this post has 3 misspelled wrong and thought there were testing out who still reading the forums ,(don't know how to actually report it so I'm posting like this),, okay?  I read this forum and it has a lot of beneficial reading and I still enjoy it a lot  ,, oh by the way 1st mistake is (Thanks for the replays)  replies > replays    =   charms x 2 >carms
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Zenetar on 14:19:03 - 02/17/11

Reading the forums and heard there was a benefit from finding typo's
(http://www.expertadviceonline.com/images/photos/large/so_what.jpg)
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Wolfsoul on 15:05:09 - 02/17/11
I'm somewhere intruged to sea that hapans nekt
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Keyar on 20:05:54 - 02/20/11
Thanks for the replays!

I will start to work more on getting more spirit carms, asap. Right now I only have 5 carms in my deck that attack spirit, Dark Shakanite Sword. Right now I have an all swords melee deck, but I am starting to get the feeling that may not be a good idea.

I will have to work on my con or int big time since they are both vary low 65 and 80 respectively. Like I said I am a sad little noob who is trying to learn.

Reading the forums and heard there was a benefit from finding typo's knew this was going to be very difficult being that this game came out  a rather long time ago for an MMO... I seen a typo before but didn't mentioned it, but since this post has 3 misspelled wrong and thought there were testing out who still reading the forums ,(don't know how to actually report it so I'm posting like this),, okay?  I read this forum and it has a lot of beneficial reading and I still enjoy it a lot  ,, oh by the way 1st mistake is (Thanks for the replays)  replies > replays    =   charms x 2 >carms

Are you for realz(<-- not a typo)? I'd assume you're trolling but it doesn't actually seem like it. The typo-thingie I'm pretty sure is only for the actual game and to actually remark on someone's post when you can't even correctly form a single sentence yourself is kinda funny. You know, it's not just typo they're looking for, it's also grammar, and you really fail at that...
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Qqchampion on 20:33:02 - 02/20/11
Reading the forums and heard there was a benefit from finding typo's knew this was going to be very difficult being that this game came out  a rather long time ago for an MMO... I seen a typo before but didn't mentioned it, but since this post has 3 misspelled wrong and thought there were testing out who still reading the forums ,(don't know how to actually report it so I'm posting like this),, okay?  I read this forum and it has a lot of beneficial reading and I still enjoy it a lot  ,, oh by the way 1st mistake is (Thanks for the replays)  replies > replays    =   charms x 2 >carms

Quoting a flawless post

AMAZING
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Iguy on 13:21:44 - 03/04/11
Does anyone else wish that "feeding off the weak" should have the sword rune added aswell as debuff?
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Sparky on 14:40:42 - 03/04/11
Does anyone else wish that "feeding off the weak" should have the sword rune added aswell as debuff?
Should be sword/frost imo, because both runes have rune-conditional charms and could definitely use that. I just don't understand why it's simply debuff instead.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 16:57:14 - 03/04/11
Does anyone else wish that "feeding off the weak" should have the sword rune added aswell as debuff?
Should be sword/frost imo, because both runes have rune-conditional charms and could definitely use that. I just don't understand why it's simply debuff instead.

Its a peculiar charm.  Even debuff rune is a bit off as it fails to meet the usual criteria for debuff.  It does not: debuff, bane, increase bane duration, destroy defenses, decrease duration of anything.  Its an aura buff conditional on the target having already been debuffed with melee drain and ward proportional to debuff, so it earns its debuff stripes solely because it depends on them.  

In my more bitter cynical moments. I'd say that not having a sword rune on it avoided the curse of unusable weakness which applies to class charm swords.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Merton on 19:17:24 - 03/04/11
I did want it to be sword/frost.  But I think that was one that lez had issue with the runes because of the stats associated with them.  I forget exactly.

But I agree with the sentiment.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Zenetar on 20:23:40 - 03/04/11
I did want it to be sword/frost.  But I think that was one that lez had issue with the runes because of the stats associated with them.  I forget exactly.

But I agree with the sentiment.
Feeding of the Weak sux. I told ya, Merton.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Merton on 01:09:07 - 03/05/11
No.  I only agree the charm would be better served with different runes.  I stand by the charm in that it does exactly what it's supposed to do.  Improve blightwood gears along with Last Tear.  Whether or not they are ideal in the current environ or whether or not it's an ideal coli gear doesn't matter.  The charm in the right gear was proven to be incredibly effective during testing.

So...qq moar.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Iguy on 00:52:59 - 04/21/11
that is a shame, it would work better as a sword and frost rune.
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Gothmogged on 19:26:46 - 07/26/12
(warning, extreme thread necro)

A Smile of Evil after you make your Demoniac Deal is much more satisfying.

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/41824532/owner/13920
Title: Re: [Hall of Sacrifices] We will devour your soul
Post by: Astrolabia on 11:22:07 - 07/27/12
Someone needs to make a Smile of Evil+Seduction+Woeful's Whip+Sexy Bunny Disguise gear.